Doesn't make me mad, just makes me realize even more how few truly understand them.
- MJL

You have yet to make a valid argument using those stats that shows AMac is a top 4 d-man. That makes you no better than those that dismiss the stats altogether.

Oh, (frank)....Well, I'm going to go eat, do my taxes, build a 3,000 mile wall along the southern border of the US and check back in to how this one is progressing.
- Jsaquella

Be sure to bring the popcorn....


Ahh the old days of leafs trolls on all the flyers related sites and now Carolina and Vancouver fans.

SUPER MEH......

I only came in here to talk Eagles football, but I've found MacDonald to be hilariously overrated since he was an Islander and even at HF I've had these same arguments before and I still don't get why everyone thinks he's a solid top 4 d-man.
- EagleNuck

No idea. The problem is, when anyone uses stats to disagree with an opinion made by certain people here, the stats get shredded and claims of their misuse are tossed about non stop, usually by people who use stats incorrectly in the first place.

Not true, some do. Jmatchett appears to get it.
- MJL

This is the best post ever.

Meh. Solid, but nothing special IMO. Ladarius Green from SD is the next big breakout TE IMO.
- EagleNuck

I like them both. I still think Gates will see a lot of targets. That will limit Green's potential. Ertz is competing with Celek. He'll get more targets than celek.

One team being the new york islanders.
Who else were they going to play?
The other team being the Flyers... who we all agreed at the beginning of this conversation have a bad d-corps.

The point of all this is that the faith they put in him is misplaced. Using that faith as evidence isn't exactly a solid argument.
- Schenn-Sational!

Who exactly encompasses all that agreed?

No idea. The problem is, when anyone uses stats to disagree with an opinion made by certain people here, the stats get shredded and claims of their misuse are tossed about non stop, usually by people who use stats incorrectly in the first place.
- Jsaquella

My favorite stat is the most indisputable stat of them all, its called "The Final Score".

He just hopes I'll get drunk at a game again and go on a 45 minute rant about how the Flyers blew a 3-1 lead in the third.
- Jsaquella

You're going to be that old guy who calls WIP and talks about how things used to be

Do we really have to take this kind of crap from some peasant from a 3rd world country like Canuckistan?
- Doc_Sarcasm

Again, needlessly attacking entire countries/cities over a simple hockey discussion. I was just joking around. You guys still don't allow gay marriages in parts of the country, talk about a backward-thinking legal system.

This is the best post ever.
- BINGO!

Be patient

Be sure to bring the popcorn....


Ahh the old days of leafs trolls on all the flyers related sites and now Carolina and Vancouver fans.

SUPER MEH......
- Steelmanpa

I have nothing against the Flyers, the particular player being discussed is just grossly overrated.

but why can't anyone provide an argument other than "22 minutes"?
- Schenn-Sational!

Describing how he was used and how much icetime he was trusted with is a far more valid argument then using Corsi.

Be patient
- PhillySportsGuy

Oh Gawd.


There's more to it than that, you have to look at zone starts, quality of teammates/competition. And none of those help Amac's case much either btw.
- EagleNuck

I can only judge by the quality of evidence I've been given.

Just judging the facts as presented. Facts are important, so I've been told.

...and math. Math and Ice hockey.

So, It doesn't matter that you signed him to a bad contract because you made the playoffs? Maybe you would have won that game 7 with a better player. That's a ridiculous argument.

No need to improve, because we made the playoffs!!!!
- BINGO!

You know what? Until the guy plays a full season with the Flyers, I don't KNOW that it's a bad contract.

Maybe the Flyers would have won with a better player. But you know what? They didn't have that better player, and whatever Message Board Wish Machine you want to trot out didn't deliver that better player.

That's the problem people have with stats -- and I use them to evaluate players, too.

But real-life NHL hockey, day to day and season to season, isn't all about the "better player you don't (frank)ing have." Day to day hockey in the NHL is about making the playoffs with the players you DO have.

That's what you just don't get, as a fan of team that loses perennially. You get so locked into the draft, and next year, and quoting stats, that you forget that at the end of Game 82, you're going home.

The Flyers took Andy MacDonald and played past Game 82. So however much they have to "improve," then the Hurricanes need to improve that much more.

Because yeah. Making the playoffs is kinda the (frank)ing point.

Because in my book, until MacDonald plays a full season with the Flyers after going through a full training camp with systems practice, I don't know what he is.

I know what he looked like with the Islanders -- a team that has been every bit as feeble as the Leafs -- and if someone's looking for something to troll about, those numbers are there. I can read them, and I can see them.

But until he fails with the Flyers and they don't make the playoffs, man, it's just all talk coming from non-playoff teams. Because at the end of the day, whatever MacDonald didn't do, or the Flyers and their defense didn't do, the Leafs and Hurricanes did worse.

Because they weren't playing after Game 82. It's that simple.
- AllInForFlyers

I like them both. I still think Gates will see a lot of targets. That will limit Green's potential. Ertz is competing with Celek. He'll get more targets than celek.
- PhillySportsGuy

Yeah, I meant more based on talent than actual projected stats. I was hoping Chip would draft Austin Seferian-Jenkins. The smartest offensive teams use TE's heavily for mismatches

Describing how he was used and how much icetime he was trusted with is a far more valid argument then using Corsi.
- MJL

How is a something purely subjective more valid than an irrefutable number?

Again, needlessly attacking entire countries/cities over a simple hockey discussion. I was just joking around. You guys still don't allow gay marriages in parts of the country, talk about a backward-thinking legal system.
- EagleNuck

why is it always the people being attacked who are always whining about being needlessly attacked? why? how do you know its needless? what does corsi have to say about the necessity of attacking you? shouldn't you rely on an advanced metric to back up your position?

My favorite stat is the most indisputable stat of them all, its called "The Final Score".
- Doc_Sarcasm

Great stat to look at the past, not flawless when looking at the future.

I have nothing against the Flyers, the particular player being discussed is just grossly overrated.
- EagleNuck

Please explain your point, but don't use any number or logic

It's an indicator. And when everybody else on the team does better than he does, it's a glaring one.
- BINGO!

No it's not. Because everyone on the team isn't playing in the same role, in the same situations, and with the same players.

http://www.extraskater.com/players/possession?min_gp=50&per_page=all&pos=D&season=2013&sit=5v5&sort=cf_pct_rel


ranked 194th out of 194 defenders that played over 41 games.


That's a fact.


Please counter with one other than "he played 22 minutes"
- Schenn-Sational!

Smid, Carle, Regehr, Klein, an Dekeyser are all better than bottom pairing, and are all in the bottom 20 CF%rel. Brodie, Marincin, Orlov, Muzzin, Stalman, Gardiner, Schlemko, de Haan, and Barrie, and Donovan are all in the top 20 with a minimum 41 game splayed. None of them could be considered a top pairing dman. I don't know why bad corsi dmen should be automatically considered bottom pairing guys when the top corsi dmen can't automatically be considered top pairing guys. After being moved to the Flyers last year, Macdonald posted very good corsi numbers with offensive defensmen, especially Mark Streit. He also posted good CF numbers with Streit in NY. In just over 200 minutes of ice time with Streit in NY and Philly, Macdonald has put up just above a 54% CF. That's promising. I think if he plays extended time with either Streit or MDZ next season, his corsi will skyrocket.

You know what? Until the guy plays a full season with the Flyers, I don't KNOW that it's a bad contract.

Maybe the Flyers would have won with a better player. But you know what? They didn't have that better player, and whatever Message Board Wish Machine you want to trot out didn't deliver that better player.

That's the problem people have with stats -- and I use them to evaluate players, too.

But real-life NHL hockey, day to day and season to season, isn't all about the "better player you don't (frank)ing have." Day to day hockey in the NHL is about making the playoffs with the players you DO have.

That's what you just don't get, as a fan of team that loses perennially. You get so locked into the draft, and next year, and quoting stats, that you forget that at the end of Game 82, you're going home.

The Flyers took Andy MacDonald and played past Game 82. So however much they have to "improve," then the Hurricanes need to improve that much more.

Because yeah. Making the playoffs is kinda the (frank)ing point.
- AllInForFlyers

Winning the Stanley Cup is the point. I've watched my team do it. Have you?

You're going to be that old guy who calls WIP and talks about how things used to be
- PhillySportsGuy

Hell, I don't call WIP now...one of the biggest blessing of living here is that I can't accidentally stumble upon WIP while flipping through the channels as I drive