This coming year the entire Ottawa game is going to be built around Karlsson. We will see soon enough just how good he is and if he can pull Ottawa up to an elite level.
- spatso

he'll crack 80 points this season. LINDSTROM NUMBERS!!!

Much appreciated. My problem is actually more with some of the Sens fans than the leaf guys. If you want to win a Stanley Cup you have to be able to play great defensive hockey. The teams that have won recently have had a great presence down the middle (Kopitar, Toews, Bergeron). These guys who are outside many people's list of the very best NHL centers. Although most people might see them as good players that don't get the label as great player until they actually win. Yet a guy like Tavares or Spezza can be seen as top players merely on the offensive numbers they put up.

As most of you know I strongly encouraged Ottawa trading Spezza as far back as two years ago. Teams do not win championships behind one dimensional players. Turris had an even strength goal differential of plus 22 (6th among NHL centers) playing against the opposing teams top line most shifts. Spezza was minus 26 near the league bottom.

If Zibinajad (or Lazar at some future point) can match the 200' game played by Turris Ottawa will contend. Ottawa wants to reduce goals against by 50 this year. If they do they will contend. If Zibibajad, Legwand and Smith can each do a 1/3 and have a combined goal differential equal to the Turris total, Ottawa will be fighting for first place.

The Leafs do not play a 200' game. They have made the playoffs once in ten years. I understand their fans not understanding how special a player Turris is. But I am disappointed with Sens fans who still don't understand what the game plan is for the coming season.
- spatso

Hmm. I wonder how Tampa won with lecavier. Or how the Pens won with Crosby. And spezza brought the sens to the finals. Sure it's no cup but it's 2nd best.

Ottawa will not be fighting for first place. I have never seen someone overrate defense and underage offense as much as you.

I think your disagreeing with the point you were trying to make.
- spatso

haha! what i meant was karlsoon making team canada... but i get that retraction of whats posted is futile. kar would have made team canada, but along with subban would have probably been left aside for the line up that won the gold...

that said good pick up.. i typed that in 2 secs and am trying to play poker/paint the bathroom... my wife is going to kill me when she gets home.

Karlsson>Subban

Deal with it.

Sorry to break it to you but scoring goals is very important.

it was hard to tell who you were talking about at certain points but..... I underlined where I disagree with what your saying. Karlsson, before his injury and absolutely amazing recover, was the best Dman in the game (along with Keith, Doughty, Weber). Those four were in the league of their own. You could put Suter close to there but...... so let's just start with who they have. Weber has Josi, Doughty has Voynov, Keith has Seabrook, Subban has Markov, Karlsson has....... ....... ...... Methot. Nothing against Methot, he's a great player but not comparable to guys that have cup rings and log the mins that they do.

Subban is at the top of his game and I do think it's obvious he's a stronger, meaner, and better equipped physically. Karlsson just has poise and skating that few Dmen have ever had in history of the game. I don't know if Karlsson will return the form he was playing at, but if he does, he can play Lindstrom style hockey.... all he needs then is support
- AlfieisKing

certainly its an awesome debate!! I think we will have to see, time will tell. i love karlsson, i just think theres more to subban game to desire.


that said i fully agree about support, karlsson needs it. i also hope that we wont be having to use his injury as a reason he didnt excell to his potential. I hope he can return to true form! that said subban for the win!

Sorry to break it to you but scoring goals is very important.
- JVR_42_PK81

Yes, I believe that Leaf fans and management have lived by that priority for the last 10 years. How has it been working for you?

Hmm. I wonder how Tampa won with lecavier. Or how the Pens won with Crosby. And spezza brought the sens to the finals. Sure it's no cup but it's 2nd best.

Ottawa will not be fighting for first place. I have never seen someone overrate defense and underage offense as much as you.
- JVR_42_PK81

Crosby is one of the best (if not the best) defensive player in the league. Nobody comes back harder on the play. LeCavalier no longer plays a 200' game and the Flyers would like to move him because of it. He had great speed at one time. But once the wheels go you can't attack and come back fast enough to take care of your own end.

Yes, I believe that Leaf fans and management have lived by that priority for the last 10 years. How has it been working for you?
- spatso

Our Offense has not been elite. We have had some good offensive teams when we made the playoffs and last year. Actually our offense was at its best in years when we made the playoffs.

Chicago, Boston, Pittsburgh all offensively gifted teams who have won cups in the last 5 years. Yes I understand LA won with defense. I'm not bagging defense at all. But I am not like you and completely underate one or the other.

Crosby is one of the best (if not the best) defensive player in the league. Nobody comes back harder on the play. LeCavalier no longer plays a 200' game and the Flyers would like to move him because of it. He had great speed at one time. But once the wheels go you can't attack and come back fast enough to take care of your own end.
- spatso

And Crosby is not one of the best defenseive forwards in the game. Please your making a fool of yourself. Like always.

certainly its an awesome debate!! I think we will have to see, time will tell. i love karlsson, i just think theres more to subban game to desire.


that said i fully agree about support, karlsson needs it. i also hope that we wont be having to use his injury as a reason he didnt excell to his potential. I hope he can return to true form! that said subban for the win!
- munky123

I like PK. I think PK and Karlsson together would be the best Dman ever! P.K. seems like a fish out of water while Karlsson is way more calm (not physically as intimating). Who's going to have a better year next year? I'd flip a coin to find the answer to that

Our Offense has not been elite. We have had some good offensive teams when we made the playoffs and last year. Actually our offense was at its best in years when we made the playoffs.

Chicago, Boston, Pittsburgh all offensively gifted teams who have won cups in the last 5 years. Yes I understand LA won with defense. I'm not bagging defense at all. But I am not like you and completely underate one or the other.
- JVR_42_PK81

I do not dismiss the importance of scoring goals, you have to score to win. But championships are won on defense. Boston is not an offensive driven team. Their top point getters had 69 and 62 points. Chicago's best player is known for fierce defensive play and their best Dman just won the Norris. LA struggled to score goals most of the season.

And Crosby is not one of the best defenseive forwards in the game. Please your making a fool of yourself. Like always.
- JVR_42_PK81

OK now you just being purposely stupid.

I do not dismiss the importance of scoring goals, you have to score to win. But championships are won on defense. Boston is not an offensive driven team. Their top point getters had 69 and 62 points. Chicago's best player is known for fierce defensive play and their best Dman just won the Norris. LA struggled to score goals most of the season.
- spatso

Boston was third in goals scored this year. They have actually been in the top three almost ever year the past 4 or 5 years.

As for Chicago they were 2nd in goal scoring and 12th in goals against. So they rely on their offense more than defense.

And yes Keith did win the Norris but not for his defensive play but for his OFFENSIVE play.

I like PK. I think PK and Karlsson together would be the best Dman ever! P.K. seems like a fish out of water while Karlsson is way more calm (not physically as intimating). Who's going to have a better year next year? I'd flip a coin to find the answer to that
- AlfieisKing

it would certainly mak for one the most flashy d pairings in the league. I agree tho should be a coin toss as to who gets more points. That said on the pp subban does have the edge with his partner. which would inflate some numbers...

I think the debate should move tho, to who finsihes higher. ott or mtl? mtl seems to have kept a fwd momentum after the "ott upset" a few years back, whereas ott seems to be stationary. I put 80% of that on melnyk.

There was some talk about that series on the radipo today and the guys on tsn spoke not about the game, but how out dated the ctc was.. with a cheap owner, the feeling of being on a budget, while being in the NHL, does filter down. I think if the owner seems shakey the whole team will own that feeling too.

This comparison is even worse. Really Bergeron

Boston was third in goals scored this year. They have actually been in the top three almost ever year the past 4 or 5 years.

As for Chicago they were 2nd in goal scoring and 12th in goals against. So they rely on their offense more than defense.

And yes Keith did win the Norris but not for his defensive play but for his OFFENSIVE play.
- JVR_42_PK81

at the end of the day, i think you are arguing semantics.. what hes saying is part true. what you dont seem to get, and what he seems to be putting out there, is that the leaf formulae doesnt work. it wont work this year and it wont in 5. the leafs have soooo many holes to their game, that with every step forward, they take 3 back. proof is in the pudding. leafs wont make the playoffs next year with neon dion running the back end.

He's pretty close.
- RogerRoeper

No Phaneuf has been living in the outhouse not even close

remember when this thread was about the MacArthur signing....

What is exactly the Leafs formula I may ask? Yes when JFG ran the show he was terrible. Traded prospects and picks for nothing. He was awful. Burke came in. Brought in some good young players in Rielly, Gardiner, Kadri, Kessel, JVR. I believe we are headed in the right direction. Especially with Shanny running the show with bringing in all these anilitics people in.

(Frank) the Macarther signing. There isn't much to argue about that.

Crosby is one of the best (if not the best) defensive player in the league. Nobody comes back harder on the play. LeCavalier no longer plays a 200' game and the Flyers would like to move him because of it. He had great speed at one time. But once the wheels go you can't attack and come back fast enough to take care of your own end.
- spatso

Seriously, what the (frank) is going on here?

Literally, no one has ever said that sentence before. You are the first.

What is exactly the Leafs formula I may ask? Yes when JFG ran the show he was terrible. Traded prospects and picks for nothing. He was awful. Burke came in. Brought in some good young players in Rielly, Gardiner, Kadri, Kessel, JVR. I believe we are headed in the right direction. Especially with Shanny running the show with bringing in all these anilitics people in.
- JVR_42_PK81

no goalie, and suspect d. i still dont see them doing anything special.. this team cant play in its own zone for poop. actually all they do is play in their zone, and baring an explsive first line that is a scoring threat, they lack alot, they have 1 line that counter attacks. but rarely did we see the leafs enact any off zone pressure or let alone shut down the N-zone with any efficiency.

Trading rask set this team back years! also putting a C on dion is a travesty.

I understand that you don't understand. I know that you don't know how teams actually are built to contend. I believe you believe that making the playoffs is enough. And, we accept your believing that scoring goals is the most important thing for successful teams to do
- spatso

You don't understand anything.

No goalie? Do you know who Bernier is? You should meet him.