Agreed, except for the part where Toronto wouldn't entertain an offer of Nylander for Turris. I find that slightly hard to believe, since it's not evident that he's a lock to be better than a 2nd line player.
- Mr_Clean

Why would they?

Nylander has top line potential, it's not out of the realm of possibility that he'd be better than Turris... I think his draft position indicates hope in the organization that he'll be better than a guy like Turris.

We have Kadri/Bozak/Holland who are or should be good 2nd line centers. Why trade a top prospect for another one?

Agreed, except for the part where Toronto wouldn't entertain an offer of Nylander for Turris. I find that slightly hard to believe, since it's not evident that he's a lock to be better than a 2nd line player.
- Mr_Clean

So a top prospect isn't good enough to get you a 2nd liner? I find that hard to believe.

I'm quite sure that the leafs wouldn't come close to thinking about moving nylander for a 2nd liner. They're hoping he can be more than that, why trade him for less than That?

Why would they?

Nylander has top line potential, it's not out of the realm of possibility that he'd be better than Turris... I think his draft position indicates hope in the organization that he'll be better than a guy like Turris.

We have Kadri/Bozak/Holland who are or should be good 2nd line centers. Why trade a top prospect for another one?
- Feeling Glucky?

its funny how much everyone needs the season and real hockey stuff to start that we are even talking about totally unrealistic trade things that would never ever happen..haha

Why would they?

Nylander has top line potential, it's not out of the realm of possibility that he'd be better than Turris... I think his draft position indicates hope in the organization that he'll be better than a guy like Turris.

We have Kadri/Bozak/Holland who are or should be good 2nd line centers. Why trade a top prospect for another one?
- Feeling Glucky?

Exactly.


Apparently 2nd liner are now worth elite prospects

Drouin for lupul?

Why would they?

Nylander has top line potential, it's not out of the realm of possibility that he'd be better than Turris... I think his draft position indicates hope in the organization that he'll be better than a guy like Turris.

We have Kadri/Bozak/Holland who are or should be good 2nd line centers. Why trade a top prospect for another one?
- Feeling Glucky?

His draft position? 8th overall?

2013 Rasmus Ristolainen D TPS (FIN) Buffalo Sabres
2012 Derrick Pouliot D Portland (WHL) Pittsburgh Penguins
2011 Sean Couturier
C Drummondville (QMJHL) Philadelphia Flyers
2010 Alex Burmistrov C Barrie (OHL) Atlanta Thrashers
2009 Scott Glennie C Brandon (WHL) Dallas Stars
2008 Mikkel Boedker LW Kitchener (OHL) Phoenix Coyotes
2007 Zach Hamill C Everett (WHL) Boston Bruins
2006 Peter Mueller C Everett (WHL) Phoenix Coyotes
2005 Devin Setoguchi RW Saskatoon Blades (WHL) San Jose Sharks
2004 Alexandre Picard LW Lewiston MAINEiacs (QMJHL) Columbus Blue Jackets
2003 Braydon Coburn D Portland Winter Hawks (WHL) Atlanta Thrashers
2002 Pierre-Marc Bouchard C Chicoutimi Sagueneens (QMJHL) Minnesota Wild
2001 Pascal Leclaire G Halifax Mooseheads (QMJHL) Columbus Blue Jackets
2000 Nikita Alexeev LW/RW Erie Otters (OHL) Tampa Bay Lightning
1999 Taylor Pyatt LW Sudbury Wolves (OHL) New York Islanders
1998 Mark Bell C Ottawa 67's (OHL) Chicago Blackhawks
1997 Sergei Samsonov LW Detroit Vipers (IHL) Boston Bruins
1996 Johnathan Aitken D Medicine Hat Tigers (WHL) Boston Bruins
1995 Terry Ryan LW Tri-City Americans (WHL) Montreal Canadiens

I've highlighted the ones I think have been, are, or will be better than Kyle Turris. Based on his draft position and this draft history, it's very unclear to me that being picked 8th in an average class indicates he'll be a top-line forward.

Maybe you've stayed up late watching his games, or somehow know something else I don't. But draft position doesn't tell me much... Kyle Turris was a 3rd overall, you know

Besides, weren't they trying out Kadri on the wings?

So a top prospect isn't good enough to get you a 2nd liner? I find that hard to believe.

I'm quite sure that the leafs wouldn't come close to thinking about moving nylander for a 2nd liner. They're hoping he can be more than that, why trade him for less than That?
- burn

Sure, and I'm sure the Senators are hoping for the same from future first-line lock Mika Zibanejad as well. If you will look at the draft list of #8s I just posted, though, I fail to see how it's evident that a pick at that point in the draft is likely to be a top liner.

His draft position? 8th overall?

2013 Rasmus Ristolainen D TPS (FIN) Buffalo Sabres
2012 Derrick Pouliot D Portland (WHL) Pittsburgh Penguins
2011 Sean Couturier
C Drummondville (QMJHL) Philadelphia Flyers
2010 Alex Burmistrov C Barrie (OHL) Atlanta Thrashers
2009 Scott Glennie C Brandon (WHL) Dallas Stars
2008 Mikkel Boedker LW Kitchener (OHL) Phoenix Coyotes
2007 Zach Hamill C Everett (WHL) Boston Bruins
2006 Peter Mueller C Everett (WHL) Phoenix Coyotes
2005 Devin Setoguchi RW Saskatoon Blades (WHL) San Jose Sharks
2004 Alexandre Picard LW Lewiston MAINEiacs (QMJHL) Columbus Blue Jackets
2003 Braydon Coburn D Portland Winter Hawks (WHL) Atlanta Thrashers
2002 Pierre-Marc Bouchard C Chicoutimi Sagueneens (QMJHL) Minnesota Wild
2001 Pascal Leclaire G Halifax Mooseheads (QMJHL) Columbus Blue Jackets
2000 Nikita Alexeev LW/RW Erie Otters (OHL) Tampa Bay Lightning
1999 Taylor Pyatt LW Sudbury Wolves (OHL) New York Islanders
1998 Mark Bell C Ottawa 67's (OHL) Chicago Blackhawks
1997 Sergei Samsonov LW Detroit Vipers (IHL) Boston Bruins
1996 Johnathan Aitken D Medicine Hat Tigers (WHL) Boston Bruins
1995 Terry Ryan LW Tri-City Americans (WHL) Montreal Canadiens

I've highlighted the ones I think have been, are, or will be better than Kyle Turris. Based on his draft position and this draft history, it's very unclear to me that being picked 8th in an average class indicates he'll be a top-line forward.

Maybe you've stayed up late watching his games, or somehow know something else I don't. But draft position doesn't tell me much... Kyle Turris was a 3rd overall, you know

Besides, weren't they trying out Kadri on the wings?
- Mr_Clean

Who's trying kadri out on the wings? When? He's the leafs 2nd line c, and has been for a while now.

...Fine, just ignore the rest of it. #8 draft pick = first liner so long as it's my team that drafted him.

Sure, and I'm sure the Senators are hoping for the same from future first-line lock Mika Zibanejad as well. If you will look at the draft list of #8s I just posted, though, I fail to see how it's evident that a pick at that point in the draft is likely to be a top liner.
- Mr_Clean

I don't see how that list is relevant to anything being discussed. The leafs should have foregone their 8th pick and picked 9th becuae historically better players come from 9 than 8?

...Fine, just ignore the rest of it. #8 draft pick = first liner so long as it's my team that drafted him.
- Mr_Clean

Because other teams made bad picks/poorly developed their player that means that all future 8s will result in the same?

Toronto could finish 6th, 9th, or 14th and none would surprise me. Same goes for Ottawa and pretty much every other team not playing for Boston, Pittsburgh or Buffalo. The East is too difficult to predict.
- BetterCallSaul

I think it's a safe bet to assume Tampa Bay makes a post season apperance in 2014/2015.

He's a lock for stardom in your mind, and that's fine... I have no evidence to support or refute that suggestion except the list of players drafted at #8.

Glucky specifically said he would be expected to be a top offensive talent based on his draft position, and I don't think the empirical evidence supports that assertion.

He's a lock for stardom in your mind, and that's fine... I have no evidence to support or refute that suggestion except the list of players drafted at #8.

Glucky specifically said he would be expected to be a top offensive talent based on his draft position, and I don't think the empirical evidence supports that assertion.
- Mr_Clean

yes i about to say that..i dont know anything about the kid...he could be great or could bust...who the hell knows...

His draft position? 8th overall?

2013 Rasmus Ristolainen D TPS (FIN) Buffalo Sabres
2012 Derrick Pouliot D Portland (WHL) Pittsburgh Penguins
2011 Sean Couturier
C Drummondville (QMJHL) Philadelphia Flyers
2010 Alex Burmistrov C Barrie (OHL) Atlanta Thrashers
2009 Scott Glennie C Brandon (WHL) Dallas Stars
2008 Mikkel Boedker LW Kitchener (OHL) Phoenix Coyotes
2007 Zach Hamill C Everett (WHL) Boston Bruins
2006 Peter Mueller C Everett (WHL) Phoenix Coyotes
2005 Devin Setoguchi RW Saskatoon Blades (WHL) San Jose Sharks
2004 Alexandre Picard LW Lewiston MAINEiacs (QMJHL) Columbus Blue Jackets
2003 Braydon Coburn D Portland Winter Hawks (WHL) Atlanta Thrashers
2002 Pierre-Marc Bouchard C Chicoutimi Sagueneens (QMJHL) Minnesota Wild
2001 Pascal Leclaire G Halifax Mooseheads (QMJHL) Columbus Blue Jackets
2000 Nikita Alexeev LW/RW Erie Otters (OHL) Tampa Bay Lightning
1999 Taylor Pyatt LW Sudbury Wolves (OHL) New York Islanders
1998 Mark Bell C Ottawa 67's (OHL) Chicago Blackhawks
1997 Sergei Samsonov LW Detroit Vipers (IHL) Boston Bruins
1996 Johnathan Aitken D Medicine Hat Tigers (WHL) Boston Bruins
1995 Terry Ryan LW Tri-City Americans (WHL) Montreal Canadiens

I've highlighted the ones I think have been, are, or will be better than Kyle Turris. Based on his draft position and this draft history, it's very unclear to me that being picked 8th in an average class indicates he'll be a top-line forward.

Maybe you've stayed up late watching his games, or somehow know something else I don't. But draft position doesn't tell me much... Kyle Turris was a 3rd overall, you know

Besides, weren't they trying out Kadri on the wings?
- Mr_Clean

If you're using a top-10 pick on a player, it's because you're hoping/expecting that they'll be top line talent.

Turris is one of the examples of a team not getting what it hoped for from the pick.

Hopefully Nylander isn't.

He's a lock for stardom in your mind, and that's fine... I have no evidence to support or refute that suggestion except the list of players drafted at #8.

Glucky specifically said he would be expected to be a top offensive talent based on his draft position, and I don't think the empirical evidence supports that assertion.
- Mr_Clean

Expectations and reality don't always align... but yes, the expectation is that he'll be a top offensive tool for the Leafs.

Yeah pretty much... It just so happens that very few players end up being legit stars in the league, and especially outside of the top-5, so Leafs fans should understand if I take their claims with a grain of salt.

I mean, I'm thrilled with Ceci's progress, but if I had gone on the Leafs' thread last year and talked about how he was going to be a top-4 dman based on 'draft position' I wouldn't have expected a very understanding audience.

I didn't say Nylander is going to be a top line center.

I said the hope/expectation is that he will be. Which is why he was drafted where he was.

He's a lock for stardom in your mind, and that's fine... I have no evidence to support or refute that suggestion except the list of players drafted at #8.

Glucky specifically said he would be expected to be a top offensive talent based on his draft position, and I don't think the empirical evidence supports that assertion.
- Mr_Clean

I didn't say that. But the list of past #8 is not relevant to nylander. Only nylander is, and how the leafs handle him.

Pascale leclaire was an 8th overall, no chance nylander can succeed becuase of that? Really?

If you're using a top-10 pick on a player, it's because you're hoping/expecting that they'll be top line talent.

Turris is one of the examples of a team not getting what it hoped for from the pick.

Hopefully Nylander isn't.
- Feeling Glucky?

Turris is a 2nd line talent. If you'd end up being disappointed that Nylander doesn't end up being a top-50 scorer in the league, expect disappointment.

I haven't seen anything other than the testimony of Leafs fans to suggest that the top line is a probability for Nylander.

Yeah pretty much... It just so happens that very few players end up being legit stars in the league, and especially outside of the top-5, so Leafs fans should understand if I take their claims with a grain of salt.

I mean, I'm thrilled with Ceci's progress, but if I had gone on the Leafs' thread last year and talked about how he was going to be a top-4 dman based on 'draft position' I wouldn't have expected a very understanding audience.
- Mr_Clean

Why?

Turris is a 2nd line talent. If you'd end up being disappointed that Nylander doesn't end up being a top-50 scorer in the league, expect disappointment.

I haven't seen anything other than the testimony of Leafs fans to suggest that the top line is a probability for Nylander.
- Mr_Clean

Where is this coming from? If that happens I think that the pick went well.

I didn't say that. But the list of past #8 is not relevant to nylander. Only nylander is, and how the leafs handle him.

Pascale leclaire was an 8th overall, no chance nylander can succeed becuase of that? Really?
- burn

He can succeed, I guess what I'm not understanding is why people don't account for the risk inherent in prospects.

Do you think the very high percentage of #8 picks who didn't pan out were drafted because they were crappy and had no potential? Of course not. Probably most of them were legit prospects. But they weren't surefire prospects.

I'm sure there's a pretty good chance that Nylander turns into a pretty good hockey player. As, for example, Kyle Turris is. I'm also thinking that the chances he turns into a much better player is pretty slim.

Disclaimer: I understand the Leafs are probably already set at centre, so this argument doesn't refer to them specifically. But it's for the above reasons I always shake my head at people who won't consider trading a #7, #8, #9 pick for a good 2nd line centre. The chances that a pick in that range will be better than a good 2nd line centre seem so slim!

Where is this coming from? If that happens I think that the pick went well.
- burn

Yes, you'd be disappointed if it didn't happen. Sorry if I was unclear.

Turris was 53rd in league scoring last year (24th amongst centres) and you wouldn't be willing to trade Nylander for him because you think his value is higher. Thus, the expectation is that Nylander would not have met expectations if he didn't finish in the top-50 of scoring.

Why would they?

Nylander has top line potential, it's not out of the realm of possibility that he'd be better than Turris... I think his draft position indicates hope in the organization that he'll be better than a guy like Turris.

We have Kadri/Bozak/Holland who are or should be good 2nd line centers. Why trade a top prospect for another one?
- Feeling Glucky?

I think it's a long shot Nylander ends up being a better NHL'r than Turris. only time will tell.

The ONLY player I'd trade stright up for Kyle Turris on the Leafs would be Phil Kessel... Maybe JVR, but Turris is a Center & has one of the best contracts in the league $$$ for preformance wise.