I think it's a long shot Nylander ends up being a better NHL'r than Turris. only time will tell.

The ONLY player I'd trade stright up for Kyle Turris on the Leafs would be Phil Kessel... Maybe JVR, but Turris is a Center & has one of the best contracts in the league $$$ for preformance wise.
- Erik6Karlsson5

If I were building a team, I'd take JVR over Turris. As it stands, though, I wouldn't trade Turris for JVR because we'd have no good centres left.

Turris is a 2nd line talent. If you'd end up being disappointed that Nylander doesn't end up being a top-50 scorer in the league, expect disappointment.

I haven't seen anything other than the testimony of Leafs fans to suggest that the top line is a probability for Nylander.
- Mr_Clean

Sometimes people actually have to work at being disoriented. By your logic Malkin as the second line center is inferior, so is Bergeron who centers the second unit in Boston. Turris is an elite talent. He is the kind of player that helps teams win championships. Did you know that Messier was a second line center? Do you guys never think about how the game is played? A guy like Bergeron is a superb talent because he shuts down the opposing teams best player night after night.

If I were building a team, I'd take JVR over Turris. As it stands, though, I wouldn't trade Turris for JVR because we'd have no good centres left.
- Mr_Clean

I agree, I also like Turris' cap hit more than JVR of course. ( & thats saying a lot becuase JVR has a great contract!)

Sometimes people actually have to work at being disoriented. By your logic Malkin as the second line center is inferior, so is Bergeron who centers the second unit in Boston. Turris is an elite talent. He is the kind of player that helps teams win championships. Did you know that Messier was a second line center? Do you guys never think about how the game is played? A guy like Bergeron is a superb talent because he shuts down the opposing teams best player night after night.
- spatso

Huh? Don't get all pissy, offensively speaking Turris is low end number 1 or high end number 2. I choose to look at him as a high end number 2 until he's proven himself further.

There are incredible defensive forwards in this league who aren't first line talent. Also, Turris is not even as good as Bergeron, let alone Messier or Malkin, so I don't see what your point is.

He's a lock for stardom in your mind, and that's fine... I have no evidence to support or refute that suggestion except the list of players drafted at #8.

Glucky specifically said he would be expected to be a top offensive talent based on his draft position, and I don't think the empirical evidence supports that assertion.
- Mr_Clean

speaking of draft positions .....

Cowen > Kadri

I expect Toronto & Ottawa to be close in the East standings in 2014/2015.

that being said, when we are ready to really contend for a deap playoff run, i think we have the upper hand on T.O, as we have like $15 mill more cap space then them & they have a couple long term not so great contracts. ie Clarkson & Phaneuf.

speaking of draft positions .....

Cowen > Kadri
- GadesnSens

Lee > Kopitar

I expect Toronto & Ottawa to be close in the East standings in 2014/2015.

that being said, when we are ready to really contend for a deap playoff run, i think we have the upper hand on T.O, as we have like $15 mill more cap space then them & they have a couple long term not so great contracts. ie Clarkson & Phaneuf.
- Erik6Karlsson5

I disagree. Whatever else happens, they have got, all the money, and we have not.

I disagree. Whatever else happens, they have got, all the money, and we have not.
- Mr_Clean

yeah really....as long as Uncle Euge is our owner the sens will always be at a disadvantage

Huh? Don't get all pissy, offensively speaking Turris is low end number 1 or high end number 2. I choose to look at him as a high end number 2 until he's proven himself further.

There are incredible defensive forwards in this league who aren't first line talent. Also, Turris is not even as good as Bergeron, let alone Messier or Malkin, so I don't see what your point is.
- Mr_Clean

Turris is plus 22. Spezza is minus 26. It is a goal differential of 48. Both play on the same team with the same goalie and sets of D. Turris ends the season with 4 points less than Bergeron who is playing for a first place team.

I get irritated with Leaf fans but in this case I find it hard to believe how badly the Sens fans misunderstand the talent that Turris is.

spasto, maybe, just maybe, you're not smarter than everyone, and- hold on for a second, because this is a doozy, you're the one who's wrong?

speaking of draft positions .....

Cowen > Kadri
- GadesnSens

You can think that if you want

I think it's funny your the only one that thinks Turris is comparable to Bergeron and is one of the top centers in the league.

Turris is plus 22. Spezza is minus 26. It is a goal differential of 48. Both play on the same team with the same goalie and sets of D. Turris ends the season with 4 points less than Bergeron who is playing for a first place team.

I get irritated with Leaf fans but in this case I find it hard to believe how badly the Sens fans misunderstand the talent that Turris is.
- spatso

Okay, fine. Technically speaking, it was Turris who was the top liner and Spezza was the second liner. That's not what I'm talking about. But whatever may be the case Turris is NOT elite, Turris is NOT a clear #1 centre, and I don't know why you think it's SO obvious he is.

His draft position? 8th overall?

2013 Rasmus Ristolainen D TPS (FIN) Buffalo Sabres
2012 Derrick Pouliot D Portland (WHL) Pittsburgh Penguins
2011 Sean Couturier
C Drummondville (QMJHL) Philadelphia Flyers
2010 Alex Burmistrov C Barrie (OHL) Atlanta Thrashers
2009 Scott Glennie C Brandon (WHL) Dallas Stars
2008 Mikkel Boedker LW Kitchener (OHL) Phoenix Coyotes
2007 Zach Hamill C Everett (WHL) Boston Bruins
2006 Peter Mueller C Everett (WHL) Phoenix Coyotes
2005 Devin Setoguchi RW Saskatoon Blades (WHL) San Jose Sharks
2004 Alexandre Picard LW Lewiston MAINEiacs (QMJHL) Columbus Blue Jackets
2003 Braydon Coburn D Portland Winter Hawks (WHL) Atlanta Thrashers
2002 Pierre-Marc Bouchard C Chicoutimi Sagueneens (QMJHL) Minnesota Wild
2001 Pascal Leclaire G Halifax Mooseheads (QMJHL) Columbus Blue Jackets
2000 Nikita Alexeev LW/RW Erie Otters (OHL) Tampa Bay Lightning
1999 Taylor Pyatt LW Sudbury Wolves (OHL) New York Islanders
1998 Mark Bell C Ottawa 67's (OHL) Chicago Blackhawks
1997 Sergei Samsonov LW Detroit Vipers (IHL) Boston Bruins
1996 Johnathan Aitken D Medicine Hat Tigers (WHL) Boston Bruins
1995 Terry Ryan LW Tri-City Americans (WHL) Montreal Canadiens

I've highlighted the ones I think have been, are, or will be better than Kyle Turris. Based on his draft position and this draft history, it's very unclear to me that being picked 8th in an average class indicates he'll be a top-line forward.

Maybe you've stayed up late watching his games, or somehow know something else I don't. But draft position doesn't tell me much... Kyle Turris was a 3rd overall, you know

Besides, weren't they trying out Kadri on the wings?
- Mr_Clean

None of the guys you highlighted are better than Turris, and Couturier would have to start scoring points a lot more often to become better.

You can think that if you want
- Feeling Glucky?

Kind of parodying the notion that draft order is a hard-and-fast sort of thing, I think.

Oh wait, I have no idea what he's talking about.

I was trying to be generous

My point was, even being generous, the argument looks bad.

Turris is a 2nd line talent. If you'd end up being disappointed that Nylander doesn't end up being a top-50 scorer in the league, expect disappointment.

I haven't seen anything other than the testimony of Leafs fans to suggest that the top line is a probability for Nylander.
- Mr_Clean

well, you're not looking.

Pre-draft, he was seen as one of, if not the most offensively talented players in the draft.

here's an article from before the draft:
http://www.chatsports.com...illiam-Nylander-2-9022901

IMO, he's a guy who'll either impress or disappear. He doesn't have defensive game to speak of right now, he's kind of small, and he relies a lot on east-west movement, which works better on bigger ice.

That being said he's got great IQ, great lower body strength, and tons of natural skill.



It's top-6 or bust for him. What's the point in trading him for a player that doesn't have the same top-level upside, when you've got 3 guys who can fill in the same role?

yea, Kadri wins in both draft order and on-ice

Huh? Don't get all pissy, offensively speaking Turris is low end number 1 or high end number 2. I choose to look at him as a high end number 2 until he's proven himself further.

There are incredible defensive forwards in this league who aren't first line talent. Also, Turris is not even as good as Bergeron, let alone Messier or Malkin, so I don't see what your point is.
- Mr_Clean

this sort of talk is what drives me nuts, though.

Last season, Turris:

-Had the toughest qualcomp numbers among Ottawa senators centermen.

-Scored the 24th most points league-wide for centermen

-Was top 30 in plus/minus league-wide, on a senators team that allowed the fourth-most goals against in the league

-Played the penalty kill and the 2nd PP

And we're STILL talking about this guy as if he isn't a top line player?

it's a ridiculous statement to make. period.

Is he Jon Toews or Sidney Crosby? No - but you're god damn right he's top line quality. When you're in the top 30 in scoring at your position, you're a top line player (pssst....there's only 30 teams in the league)...When you play tough competition and still have one of the best 30 goal differentials in the league, you're a top line (frank)ing player.

So can we all stop talking about Kyle Turris as if he's some humdrum piece part, and recognize that this guy is one of the top 20-30 centermen in the game? Or do we have to win a cup? Or does he have to break 80 points?

What's the (frank)ing criteria here for a top line forward, someone please help me out.

well, you're not looking.

Pre-draft, he was seen as one of, if not the most offensively talented players in the draft.

here's an article from before the draft:
http://www.chatsports.com...illiam-Nylander-2-9022901

IMO, he's a guy who'll either impress or disappear. He doesn't have defensive game to speak of right now, he's kind of small, and he relies a lot on east-west movement, which works better on bigger ice.

That being said he's got great IQ, great lower body strength, and tons of natural skill.



It's top-6 or bust for him. What's the point in trading him for a player that doesn't have the same top-level upside, when you've got 3 guys who can fill in the same role?
- Feeling Glucky?

Top-six I'll give you, true top liner (65+ pts) I won't.

Turris is plus 22. Spezza is minus 26. It is a goal differential of 48. Both play on the same team with the same goalie and sets of D. Turris ends the season with 4 points less than Bergeron who is playing for a first place team.

I get irritated with Leaf fans but in this case I find it hard to believe how badly the Sens fans misunderstand the talent that Turris is.
- spatso

Agreed, it's disgraceful.

If we had drafted a player like Turris ourselves 4 years ago and developed him in the minors and he came up and played like this, without the Phoenix saga, everyone would be talking about this guy as the future cornerstone of our forwards - and yet everyone is willing to downplay KT because they can't shake the couple years of wasted development in arizona and realize how far this guy has come the last 3 seasons.

this sort of talk is what drives me nuts, though.

Last season, Turris:

-Had the toughest qualcomp numbers among Ottawa senators centermen.

-Scored the 24th most points league-wide for centermen

-Was top 30 in plus/minus league-wide, on a senators team that allowed the fourth-most goals against in the league

-Played the penalty kill and the 2nd PP

And we're STILL talking about this guy as if he isn't a top line player?

it's a ridiculous statement to make. period.

Is he Jon Toews or Sidney Crosby? No - but you're god damn right he's top line quality. When you're in the top 30 in scoring at your position, you're a top line player (pssst....there's only 30 teams in the league)...When you play tough competition and still have one of the best 30 goal differentials in the league, you're a top line (frank)ing player.

So can we all stop talking about Kyle Turris as if he's some humdrum piece part, and recognize that this guy is one of the top 20-30 centermen in the game? Or do we have to win a cup? Or does he have to break 80 points?

What's the (frank)ing criteria here for a top line forward, someone please help me out.
- TommyDeVito

How about he does it twice? That would satisfy me. I guess I don't see how one very good season makes a true top-line centre. I could be convinced, though.

Elite, no, sorry - if you're on board with Spats on that front, I haven't got anything to say to you.

None of the guys you highlighted are better than Turris, and Couturier would have to start scoring points a lot more often to become better.
- TommyDeVito

Bouchard would have been much, much better if not for injuries.

By the time he was 25, Bouchard already had 4 seasons above, of on pace for more than 50 points... including a 60+ point season. Turris has 1 50+ point season(his only season over 40 points).

Turris also has the same amount of impressive seasons as LeClaire.... 1.

And while it'd be nice if Couturier put up more points, he's already better defensively than Turris, and most NHLers will likely ever be.... and at 21, he's put up a 39 point season. What was Turris doing at that age? How old was he when he first passed that number, or was on pace to?

Top-six I'll give you, true top liner (65+ pts) I won't.
- Mr_Clean

I'll take what the scouts give me

But odds are you're right.

He'll probably be around Turris's level when all is said and done. But why sacrifice years of eligibility, and the high end potential, when we already have guys like Kadri, Bozak, and Holland, who either already are 2nd line centers, or look like they could be?