top five
Crosby
Stamkos
JT
Malkin
Toews

The advanced stats are really comparable between the two, for sure.

Bergeron is 3rd in the NHL(among players who played over 40 games), and Turris is 164th! Both are ranked! Comparable!


(PS- worth noting that the Leafs' bargain bin signing, Booth, is 163rd)

top five
Crosby
Stamkos
JT
Malkin
Toews
- mighty13duck

nice try

You say you love kessel but it shows you don't. He's a top five player in the league IMO
- kessellover69

Your profile name clearly shows what you'd like to do to Kessel, no doubt, but even your hummer abilities would never make him a top 5 player in the league. Here are some examples of better players:

-Anyone on 2014 Team Canada that is not a backup goalie
-Overchikin, Malkin, Datsyuk, Kovalchuk from Russia
-Zetterberg, the Sedins, and Karlsson from Sweden (don't even argue this, Karlsson has led all D men in points the last 3 seasons, and has a Norris trophy as the best player in his position compared to one Masterson trophy for Kessel, and their career points per game is almost equal (0.783 for Kessel as a forward and 0.753 for Karlsson as a defenseman)
-Parise, Pavelski, Pacioretty, and Pat Kane from the good ol' US of A

That's 31 better players just to start...

Let's the insanity recommence!!!!

nice try
- Feeling Glucky?

How would you rank them

He's a top 10 C in the NHL, IMO.
- 1979AD

Yeah but you're talking to a guy who put Turris in the top 6 centers in the league.

Your profile name clearly shows what you'd like to do to Kessel, no doubt, but even your hummer abilities would never make him a top 5 player in the league. Here are some examples of better players:

-Anyone on 2014 Team Canada that is not a backup goalie
-Overchikin, Malkin, Datsyuk, Kovalchuk from Russia
-Zetterberg, the Sedins, and Karlsson from Sweden (don't even argue this, Karlsson has led all D men in points the last 3 seasons, and has a Norris trophy as the best player in his position compared to one Masterson trophy for Kessel, and their career points per game is almost equal (0.783 for Kessel as a forward and 0.753 for Karlsson as a defenseman)
-Parise, Pavelski, Pacioretty, and Pat Kane from the good ol' US of A

That's 31 better players just to start...

Let's the insanity recommence!!!!
- ahjnkn

This thread needs to just get shut down I think. Getting out of hand

The advanced stats are really comparable between the two, for sure.

Bergeron is 3rd in the NHL(among players who played over 40 games), and Turris is 164th! Both are ranked! Comparable!


(PS- worth noting that the Leafs' bargain bin signing, Booth, is 163rd)
- Feeling Glucky?

Comparable

How would you rank them
- mighty13duck

I'd have Zetterberg in the top-5, and JT just outside.

JT's going to be top-5, IMO... but if I was building a team to win the cup next year, I'd take Zetterberg over JT.

Your profile name clearly shows what you'd like to do to Kessel, no doubt, but even your hummer abilities would never make him a top 5 player in the league. Here are some examples of better players:

-Anyone on 2014 Team Canada that is not a backup goalie
-Overchikin, Malkin, Datsyuk, Kovalchuk from Russia
-Zetterberg, the Sedins, and Karlsson from Sweden (don't even argue this, Karlsson has led all D men in points the last 3 seasons, and has a Norris trophy as the best player in his position compared to one Masterson trophy for Kessel, and their career points per game is almost equal (0.783 for Kessel as a forward and 0.753 for Karlsson as a defenseman)
-Parise, Pavelski, Pacioretty, and Pat Kane from the good ol' US of A

That's 31 better players just to start...

Let's the insanity recommence!!!!
- ahjnkn

Everything bolded belongs in a hook and tossed in a lake.


And I'm going to bite. Karlsson did not deserve his Norris, but big, flashy numbers distract the people whoop vie from what matters. And the Pacioretty statement... Good attempt.

Your profile name clearly shows what you'd like to do to Kessel, no doubt, but even your hummer abilities would never make him a top 5 player in the league. Here are some examples of better players:

-Anyone on 2014 Team Canada that is not a backup goalie
-Overchikin, Malkin, Datsyuk, Kovalchuk from Russia
-Zetterberg, the Sedins, and Karlsson from Sweden (don't even argue this, Karlsson has led all D men in points the last 3 seasons, and has a Norris trophy as the best player in his position compared to one Masterson trophy for Kessel, and their career points per game is almost equal (0.783 for Kessel as a forward and 0.753 for Karlsson as a defenseman)
-Parise, Pavelski, Pacioretty, and Pat Kane from the good ol' US of A

That's 31 better players just to start...

Let's the insanity recommence!!!!
- ahjnkn

Oh believe me, it's commenced and you're now leading the charge.

Travis, I think the Macarthur signing is good value and it's great for the Sens you have him for 5 years.

However it's hard for me to take your list seriously if Crosby, Ovechkin and Malkin are not on there. I think you would agree they are elite.

Everything bolded belongs in a hook and tossed in a lake.


And I'm going to bite. Karlsson did not deserve his Norris, but big, flashy numbers distract the people whoop vie from what matters. And the Pacioretty statement... Good attempt.
- BetterCallSaul

Karlsson is really good though. Let's be honest if Rielly turned out even close to as good as Karlsson then we would all be happy. Karlsson is also what? 24?

Goals, assists, goal differential and almost all advanced stats suggest that Turris plays a game in the mould of Bergeron. Turris would have been an effective replacement for Bergeron in that Bruin line up. And, Turris is going to get a lot better.
- spatso

Wow....

Your profile name clearly shows what you'd like to do to Kessel, no doubt, but even your hummer abilities would never make him a top 5 player in the league. Here are some examples of better players:

-Anyone on 2014 Team Canada that is not a backup goalie
-Overchikin, Malkin, Datsyuk, Kovalchuk from Russia
-Zetterberg, the Sedins, and Karlsson from Sweden (don't even argue this, Karlsson has led all D men in points the last 3 seasons, and has a Norris trophy as the best player in his position compared to one Masterson trophy for Kessel, and their career points per game is almost equal (0.783 for Kessel as a forward and 0.753 for Karlsson as a defenseman)
-Parise, Pavelski, Pacioretty, and Pat Kane from the good ol' US of A

That's 31 better players just to start...

Let's the insanity recommence!!!!
- ahjnkn

so, what you are saying is that if Kessel was Canadian he's not good enough to make team Canada? really

Travis, I think the Macarthur signing is good value and it's great for the Sens you have him for 5 years.

However it's hard for me to take your list seriously if Crosby, Ovechkin and Malkin are not on there. I think you would agree they are elite.
- Rang

It's not "his list"... it's a list of guys that are good at driving possession stats.

Just because a player isn't on there, doesn't mean they're not good, or elite... and in the same token, just because they're on there doesn't mean they are.

Spatso is a little crazy. He actually gives us Sens fans a bad name for some of the ideas he has. It's ridiculous. Hey, I'd love to have Turris become an effective player like Bergeron. But, if that happens Turris will still need to grow a lot. I'm not saying it can't happen but it's just not a good comparable at the moment.

Anyway, if we are talking centre depth between the Leafs and Sens then I think the Sens have the edge over the Leafs. Turris > Bozak, Zibanejad <= Kadri, Legwand > Holland, Smith > Kontiola.

If we are comparing Karlsson to Kessel well both have very similar pros and cons. Both are beasts in the offensive zone with or without the puck. In the defensive zone with the puck Kessel is OK but without the puck is horrible. Karlsson in his defensive zone is amazing with the puck and horrible without it. In the neutral zone both are dynamic with the puck and without the puck I'd give the edge to Kessel because he's closer to the blue line and draws more attention. But, then when you compare which plays more that's obviously Karlsson and he counts less against the cap. That last part is only more important when your team spends to the cap and needs to make every dollar work. So that part is a wash since Eugene is a cheap bum.

Spatso is a little crazy. He actually gives us Sens fans a bad name for some of the ideas he has. It's ridiculous. Hey, I'd love to have Turris become an effective player like Bergeron. But, if that happens Turris will still need to grow a lot. I'm not saying it can't happen but it's just not a good comparable at the moment.

Anyway, if we are talking centre depth between the Leafs and Sens then I think the Sens have the edge over the Leafs. Turris > Bozak, Zibanejad <= Kadri, Legwand > Holland, Smith > Kontiola.

If we are comparing Karlsson to Kessel well both have very similar pros and cons. Both are beasts in the offensive zone with or without the puck. In the defensive zone with the puck Kessel is OK but without the puck is horrible. Karlsson in his defensive zone is amazing with the puck and horrible without it. In the neutral zone both are dynamic with the puck and without the puck I'd give the edge to Kessel because he's closer to the blue line and draws more attention. But, then when you compare which plays more that's obviously Karlsson and he counts less against the cap. That last part is only more important when your team spends to the cap and needs to make every dollar work. So that part is a wash since Eugene is a cheap bum.
- riceroni

when Karlsson' contract comes due he'll be paid just as much if not more

that girl was sittin on a fortune...and now shes gone

when Karlsson' contract comes due he'll be paid just as much if not more
- the_eye

But that's in what 5 years including this one... So that's not really a relevant statement.

Teams that take quantity as a substitute for quality don't really come out on top of the trade.

MacArthur and Turris(to a lesser extent) are replaceable players. You can find their type in UFA almost every year. Guys like Kessel, on the other hand, don't come along very often.


Lets put it this way... any two of the Leafs' bargain bin UFAs should outproduce(or come close to) Turris or MacArthur... at a fraction of the cost. Would you trade either player for that?
- Feeling Glucky?

I don't agree with this.

Of the four bargain basement Leafs UFA's, the one with the best chance to produce is Mike Santorelli...and if he gets 40pts this year, you're probably feeling amazing about getting him. Booth, Winnik, Komarov, Kontiola, these guys aren't breaking, or even touching the .5ppg range.

Turris and MacArthur, on the other hand, should look at 60pts each as being the floor. Anything below 60pts for Turris should be considered a disappointment, and MacArthur shouldn't be far behind. 55pts for MacArthur should be the expectation, and anything more than than should be considered a bonus.

MacArthur's 55pts last year is comparable statistically to JVR's 61. Are you going to tell me that JVR and Mike Santorelli are interchangeable.

Here's the thing. Anyone saying that Turris+ Mac is better than Kessel is obviously wrong. Kessel is absolutely one of the best RW's in the league right now. He's got some defensive shortcomings mind you, but he more than makes up for it with the points he puts up.

But the point is, Turris and MacArthur are what the Senators have to work with as top line players. Turris would be a #1C on about half of the teams in the league, and that list includes both Ottawa and Toronto.

I think the biggest thing to appreciate about it though, is that MacLean is a wayyyyyy better coach than Carlyle, and he's likely to get way more out of any of those players than Carlyle ever could.

So yes, Kessel is the superior player. But Turris and MacArthur will perform extremely well within the Senators' system.

Spatso is a little crazy. He actually gives us Sens fans a bad name for some of the ideas he has. It's ridiculous. Hey, I'd love to have Turris become an effective player like Bergeron. But, if that happens Turris will still need to grow a lot. I'm not saying it can't happen but it's just not a good comparable at the moment.

Anyway, if we are talking centre depth between the Leafs and Sens then I think the Sens have the edge over the Leafs. Turris > Bozak, Zibanejad <= Kadri, Legwand > Holland, Smith > Kontiola.

If we are comparing Karlsson to Kessel well both have very similar pros and cons. Both are beasts in the offensive zone with or without the puck. In the defensive zone with the puck Kessel is OK but without the puck is horrible. Karlsson in his defensive zone is amazing with the puck and horrible without it. In the neutral zone both are dynamic with the puck and without the puck I'd give the edge to Kessel because he's closer to the blue line and draws more attention. But, then when you compare which plays more that's obviously Karlsson and he counts less against the cap. That last part is only more important when your team spends to the cap and needs to make every dollar work. So that part is a wash since Eugene is a cheap bum.
- riceroni

The Leafs easily win the centre comparison vs. Senators - for the simple reason that we have so many more of them. Sure, none may be particularly good, but using EA Sports NHL 98 logic, a lot of mediocre players = a great player. And we have 47 mediocre centres.

As for a Karlsson vs. Kessel comparison - Oh Lord. They aren't comparable.

It's not "his list"... it's a list of guys that are good at driving possession stats.

Just because a player isn't on there, doesn't mean they're not good, or elite... and in the same token, just because they're on there doesn't mean they are.
- Feeling Glucky?

He said "I went ahead and compiled the list of forwards" so I called it his list. In any case all is good but if he is saying Mac is elite because his possession stats are similar to other elite forwards then I just question the validity of the exercise if some of the top talents in the game aren't there.

WTF are you talking about?
- 1979AD

ohhhhh - you were seriously in tune with Glucky's thinking


so you'd rather have a great winger by himself - with no-one to pass to him, than a really good combination...... that's a great way to build a team

and before you jump all over me in some sort of anti-Sens rant, remember I admitted that Bosak/Kessel is a really good combo. I was only commenting on the theory that one great player is better to have than two really good players that work great together

top five
Crosby
Stamkos
JT
Malkin
Toews
- mighty13duck

Crosby
Stamkos
Tavares
Turris
Toews