I'd say he benefitted mightily in this possession stat from playing a lot with the Flyers best two possession players, G and Voracek.

Not sure what the advance stats say about this, it is just my gestalt.
- Marc D

He did benefit from Giroux and Voracek, but also put up good numbers away from them.

Always liked the Blues' jersey and logo.

I was glad when they shelved this one, though...

Those were hideous. I like the third jersey they had the past couple years.

What if the people that collect the data, for the advanced stats.

What if these people, made mistakes. *brain pieces all over the wall*

Trust no-one.
- flyer_nutter

What if Newton missed a negative sign proving calculus?

I'm being 100% serious.

Those were hideous. I like the third jersey they had the past couple years.


- Jsaquella

LOVE their 3rds. One of my favorite hockey jerseys. I have a tee with Pietrangelo on the back.

I agree with damn near every word of this post.

I think, though, that at the risk of sounding way too positive because I do acknowledge that the loss of Timonen is brutal and I have no idea how much Umberger has left in the tank, that this Flyers team will be surprisingly effective this year.

Improved discipline and better systems play can take you a long way in this league, and the Flyers have enough talent in spots to be really effective in certain types/styles of play.

Maybe I'm just being a big old fan in August, but I think this team is going to surprise people in a good way, if you're a fan.
- AllInForFlyers

It's not being a big old fan. A team can become a better team in a lot of ways. It's just not by adding better players. One of the biggest reasons why the Flyers struggled at times last season, is because they didn't play well enough as a team. They don't need to add a single player to improve in that area.

For whatever reason, I think the Hartnell-Umberger deal will be net neutral, which kinda skews how I think the season will go in the Top 6. Umberger, if he does what I think, repeat think, he will do, will be a more consistent performer, and valuable, in other ways, while still producing some points.

If Umberger does that, then I think the Flyers will be relatively stable.
- AllInForFlyers

Hartnell had 20 goals and 52 points last year. I think a healthy Umberger, if he plays with the right people and sees some PP time, could approach that. I don't think that he can put up a 37 goal 60+ point season like Hartnell might, but that's not a guarantee either. But I do know that Umberger is a smarter player, and a better all around player, along with being more disciplined then Hartnell is. The Flyers are going to miss some elements that Hartnell added, no doubt. But I think that Umberger can be a solid player for the Flyers.

Hartnell was among the team's best possession players last couple seasons, despite the sometimes frequent idiotic passes.
- Jsaquella

Mostly as a passenger. He's a solid support player, and has the ability to mesh with a lot of players on different lines.

Per Bob Rotruck, Phantoms sign Brett Hextall
- Jsaquella

Must be nice having a dad for a GM

Hartnell had 20 goals and 52 points last year. I think a healthy Umberger, if he plays with the right people and sees some PP time, could approach that. I don't think that he can put up a 37 goal 60+ point season like Hartnell might, but that's not a guarantee either. But I do know that Umberger is a smarter player, and a better all around player, along with being more disciplined then Hartnell is. The Flyers are going to miss some elements that Hartnell added, no doubt. But I think that Umberger can be a solid player for the Flyers.
- MJL

If they are shorthanded 35 or 45 less times during the season, I think the trade is worth it. I have no doubt that their production is not going to be that disparate. It wasn't last season. I think Hartnell is on the down slope of his career, as is Umberger. So the difference in penalty minutes will make a huge difference in a few different ways. It will certainly help Couturier, along with sparing other players like Giroux, Read, and the defense hard minutes over the course of a season.

If they are shorthanded 35 or 45 less times during the season, I think the trade is worth it. I have no doubt that their production is not going to be that disparate. It wasn't last season. I think Hartnell is on the down slope of his career, as is Umberger. So the difference in penalty minutes will make a huge difference in a few different ways. It will certainly help Couturier, along with sparing other players like Giroux, Read, and the defense hard minutes over the course of a season.
- MBFlyerfan

No doubt. Hartnell took 33 minors last season. Tied for 13th in the League. Umberger had 13 minors in 74 games last Season.

No doubt. Hartnell took 33 minors last season. Tied for 13th in the League. Umberger had 13 minors in 74 games last Season.
- MJL

And many of them were of the momentum killing variety.

It's premature to look that far in advance at a free agency class. How many of those players will never even make it that far, and be re-signed before making it to free agency?
- MJL

http://ottawacitizen.com/...obby-ryan-to-stay-a-while

I think there is a reason why teams like Ryan so much. He's easily the shot we're missing.

You of course have the right to your opinion but Bobby Ryan is easily a bigger name then Jake Voracek. Let's put abilities aside between the two players and focus strictly on names. Ryan might not be a Super Star but he's absolutely a star, probably on the same level as Jeff Carter. Four 30 goal seasons within his first four seasons in the NHL. That's not at least being a star? Ryan would have easily hit 30 again his season within his own abilities if not for his season ending injury. I could only imagine what he could do playing with Claude Giroux. I love Jake Voracek. He reminds me of a young Marian Hossa, but what good is his speed, size and skill if he's not shooting the puck more along side Giroux?

Or at the very least, traded away and re-upped with their new teams, which I believe is what will happen to Seabrook and Bufflin.
- Giroux_Is_God

I'm interested in knowing which player will be forced to leave Chicago next. Hossa, Sharp or Seabrook.

I'm interested in knowing which player will be forced to leave Chicago next. Hossa, Sharp or Seabrook.
- SuperSchennBros

If I were them, I'd trade Seabrook for a king's ransom sooner than later. Get a young bluechip D prospect/player (or two) back as part of the package, and bring Clendening and Rundblad on to the roster... not sure they'd really be that much worse for it short term.

IMO, Oduya's the guy they need to hang on to. He's handling the bulk of the tough matchups... not Seabs.

You of course have the right to your opinion but Bobby Ryan is easily a bigger name then Jake Voracek. Let's put abilities aside between the two players and focus strictly on names. Ryan might not be a Super Star but he's absolutely a star, probably on the same level as Jeff Carter. Four 30 goal seasons within his first four seasons in the NHL. That's not at least being a star? Ryan would have easily hit 30 again within his own abilities if not for his season ending injury. I could only imagine what he could do playing with Claude Giroux. I love Jake Voracek. He reminds me of a young Marian Hossa, but what good is his speed, size and skill if he's not shooting the pick more along side Giroux?
- SuperSchennBros

What good is having a guy that reminds you of Hossa if he's not shooting more? Really?

Voracek has the ability to be an elite level player, who can score goals, create offense with his speed and ability to carry the puck and make plays. He'd probably better serve the Flyers separated from Giroux and forming a second offensive line more capable of carrying the play at even strength.

Ryan's a good player and definitely a good goal scorer. But he had those 30 goal seasons playing a lot with Getzlaff & Perry. He's also much more of a one dimensional player than Voracek. Whether he's a star or not, that's really immaterial. Does he bring something that the Flyers can't get elsewhere at a reasonable price?

I don't think so. I think if they put Read or Simmonds with Giroux, they'd score 30 goals.

http://ottawacitizen.com/sports/hockey/nhl/senators-extra/senator-clarke-macarthur-wants-to-convince-bobby-ryan-to-stay-a-while

I think there is a reason why teams like Ryan so much. He's easily the shot we're missing.

You of course have the right to your opinion but Bobby Ryan is easily a bigger name then Jake Voracek. Let's put abilities aside between the two players and focus strictly on names. Ryan might not be a Super Star but he's absolutely a star, probably on the same level as Jeff Carter. Four 30 goal seasons within his first four seasons in the NHL. That's not at least being a star? Ryan would have easily hit 30 again his season within his own abilities if not for his season ending injury. I could only imagine what he could do playing with Claude Giroux. I love Jake Voracek. He reminds me of a young Marian Hossa, but what good is his speed, size and skill if he's not shooting the puck more along side Giroux?
- SuperSchennBros

If Ryan takes a discount to sign with us, I'd take him. I wouldn't hesitate to sign him for $5mil, but I wouldn't go higher than $6. But if we can get a free first line winger for a good contract, I don't see why not to pull the trigger. Also, is Voracek really known for his two-way complete game? Cause that's Hossa's bread and butter.

He did benefit from Giroux and Voracek, but also put up good numbers away from them.
- Jsaquella

I dunno... if we're talking about his time w/ Schenn/Simmer, their WOWY boost w/ Hartsy probably had more to do w/ who was coming off that line (Vincent LeAnchor) than anything that Hartsy did for them.

Numbers aside, I think we can all agree that Hartsy wasn't a guy who managed the puck particularly well.

I dunno... if we're talking about his time w/ Schenn/Simmer, their WOWY boost w/ Hartsy probably had more to do w/ who was coming off that line (Vincent LeAnchor) than anything that Hartsy did for them.

Numbers aside, I think we can all agree that Hartsy wasn't a guy who managed the puck particularly well.


- Tomahawk

It's possible, but Hartnell had a decent CF% almost no matter who he played with.

Not that he was necessarily driving it, but he did have decent numbers even away from the Giroux-Voracek pair.

That said, yeah, Hartnell wasn't exactly the main cause of the number spike.

What good is having a guy that reminds you of Hossa if he's not shooting more? Really?

Voracek has the ability to be an elite level player, who can score goals, create offense with his speed and ability to carry the puck and make plays. He'd probably better serve the Flyers separated from Giroux and forming a second offensive line more capable of carrying the play at even strength.

Ryan's a good player and definitely a good goal scorer. But he had those 30 goal seasons playing a lot with Getzlaff & Perry. He's also much more of a one dimensional player than Voracek. Whether he's a star or not, that's really immaterial. Does he bring something that the Flyers can't get elsewhere at a reasonable price?

I don't think so. I think if they put Read or Simmonds with Giroux, they'd score 30 goals.
- Jsaquella

Jake Voracek is entering his 7th season in the NHL. Six seasons is already a high number. Sure he has the ability to do the things you've named but he also has to do it.

As for the goals you claim Ryan got with Getzlaf and Perry, you left out last season when he no longer had those two players playing with him. To me, most including yourself is selling one player short because he's not here and overrating another because he is. Ryan didn't get all his goals playing with Getzlaf and Perry. He wasn't always a regular on the first PP unit because Selanne would often step in and there were many times where Ryan was separated from Getzlaf and Perry. Even if Ryan spent his entire Ducks career with Getzlaf, even better because you got a pretty good idea of what he can do with a playmaker...like Claude Giroux?

If Ryan takes a discount to sign with us, I'd take him. I wouldn't hesitate to sign him for $5mil, but I wouldn't go higher than $6. But if we can get a free first line winger for a good contract, I don't see why not to pull the trigger. Also, is Voracek really known for his two-way complete game? Cause that's Hossa's bread and butter.
- JAKEw1234

I don't think Voracek's known for his two way game at all, so no. I think he's pretty good in all three ends but I've seen him cheat a little to get out of the defensive zone.

It's possible, but Hartnell had a decent CF% almost no matter who he played with.

Not that he was necessarily driving it, but he did have decent numbers even away from the Giroux-Voracek pair.

That said, yeah, Hartnell wasn't exactly the main cause of the number spike.
- Jsaquella

I think Hartnell had one of the top 20 CF%rel in the league.

I dunno... if we're talking about his time w/ Schenn/Simmer, their WOWY boost w/ Hartsy probably had more to do w/ who was coming off that line (Vincent LeAnchor) than anything that Hartsy did for them.

Numbers aside, I think we can all agree that Hartsy wasn't a guy who managed the puck particularly well.


- Tomahawk

I had a lot of favourite lines that include Scott Hartnell.

Hartnell-Briere-Leino
Hartnell-Carter-Lupul
Hartnell-Giroux-Jagr
Hartnell-Carter-Briere

Some might not remember but Hartnell played with Richards and Downie during Downie's first stint. I actually liked the grit of that line a lot. Hartnell was placed with Carter and Upshall his first season as a Flyer but could only score empty net goals for that first month.

I don't think Voracek's known for his two way game at all, so no. I think he's pretty good in all three ends but I've seen him cheat a little to get out of the defensive zone.
- SuperSchennBros

I'd equate Voracek at the top of his game to a poor man's Jagr. The style with which he skates and controls the puck is literally the same way Jagr does it. He's clearly tried to model his game after Jagr's and his CF numbers reflect it.

I had a lot of favourite lines that include Scott Hartnell.

Hartnell-Briere-Leino
Hartnell-Carter-Lupul
Hartnell-Giroux-Jagr
Hartnell-Carter-Briere

Some might not remember but Hartnell played with Richards and Downie during Downie's first stint. I actually liked the grit of that line a lot. Hartnell was placed with Carter and Upshall his first season as a Flyer but could only score empty net goals for that first month.
- SuperSchennBros

This is all true. But I really think Berube wants this team to play a WAY more disciplined game. I don't think he believed Hartnell could do it. And to be honest, from reading between the lines, I don't think they believed Hartnell cared to do it either.

I'd equate Voracek at the top of his game to a poor man's Jagr. The style with which he skates and controls the puck is literally the same way Jagr does it. He's clearly tried to model his game after Jagr's and his CF numbers reflect it.
- JAKEw1234

Voracek's just a much better skater. Jagr can put those weights on his legs during midnight practices all he likes but they also look like they are permanently mounted to his skates even during games.