NO. He is DEFINITELY NOT.

Staal is absolutely the 2nd best d-man in NY.
- the_terror

how do you figure that.

girardi had:

more goals
more assists
more points
better +/-
more hits
more blocked shots
more ice time
more pk time

the only thing staal had better was his rel corsi, and that's because girardi had the 12th hardest QoC in the league, while staal was playing SIGNIFICANTLY easier minutes.

mcdonoughs numbers were also all better than staals, and so were stralman's

virtually every statistic, be it traditional or advance, points to staal being average last year, and bad the previous two

how do you figure that.

girardi had:

more goals
more assists
more points
better +/-
more hits
more blocked shots
more ice time
more pk time

the only thing staal had better was his rel corsi, and that's because girardi had the 12th hardest QoC in the league, while staal was playing SIGNIFICANTLY easier minutes.

mcdonoughs numbers were also all better than staals, and so were stralman's

virtually every statistic, be it traditional or advance, points to staal being average last year, and bad the previous two
- sensarmy_11

Any Rangers fan that watches literally every game will tell you that Staal is better than Girardi.

How do you measure positioning? Speed? Defensive awareness?

Girardi was our worst defenseman for long stretches of the playoffs. Staal played literally the best hockey of his career. Do you even watch hockey outside the Sens?

Any Rangers fan that watches literally every game will tell you that Staal is better than Girardi.

How do you measure positioning? Speed? Defensive awareness?

Girardi was our worst defenseman for long stretches of the playoffs. Staal played literally the best hockey of his career. Do you even watch hockey outside the Sens?
- rangerdanger94

ah, i get it. you follow the steve simmons way of analyzing hockey......it doesn't matter if ALL THE STATS say one thing, my eyes say something else.

got it

and if the best hockey of his career had him put up 5 pts in 25 games, have an even +/-, negative rel corsi while still playing SIGNIFICANTLY easier minutes than girardi.........then that's pretty sad

ah, i get it. you follow the steve simmons way of analyzing hockey......it doesn't matter if ALL THE STATS say one thing, my eyes say something else.

got it

and if the best hockey of his career had him put up 5 pts in 25 games, have an even +/-, negative rel corsi while still playing SIGNIFICANTLY easier minutes than girardi.........then that's pretty sad
- sensarmy_11

There is no other way to measure DEFENSE. Staal is a DEFENSIVE DEFENSEMAN. He will shutdown the opposition. He is not there to score points.

I can't believe you're trying to use POINTS to compare Girardi and Staal.

http://stats.hockeyanalys...sort=HARTQOC&sortdir=DESC

And what are you talking about? Staal had a higher Corsi than Girardi and faced much tougher competition?

Even if you adjust for Zone Starts and Close situations:
http://stats.hockeyanalys...rsi&sort=PCT&sortdir=DESC

There is no other way to measure DEFENSE. Staal is a DEFENSIVE DEFENSEMAN. He will shutdown the opposition. He is not there to score points.

I can't believe you're trying to use POINTS to compare Girardi and Staal.

http://stats.hockeyanalys...sort=HARTQOC&sortdir=DESC

And what are you talking about? Staal had a higher Corsi than Girardi and faced much tougher competition?

Even if you adjust for Zone Starts and Close situations:
http://stats.hockeyanalys...rsi&sort=PCT&sortdir=DESC
- rangerdanger94

well your website says something entirely differen from the one i looked at.....so who the hell knows who played harder competition. however, it's a safe assumption that since girardi played with mcdonough, he was facing the other teams top lines

http://www.behindthenet.c...+58+59+60+61+62+64+65+66#

edit - actually, your site shows that girardi played against the best offensive players (HARO QOC) and best overall players (HART QOC), while staal was deployed against more defensive minded forwards (HARD QOC)

and to your point about using points.......when comparing how good a dman is overall.....give me the guy who puts up points and plays agaisnt the tougher competition, over the guy who doesn't put up points but maybe plays a bit better defensively against weaker competition.

well your website says something entirely differen from the one i looked at.....so who the hell knows who played harder competition. however, it's a safe assumption that since girardi played with mcdonough, he was facing the other teams top lines

http://www.behindthenet.c...+58+59+60+61+62+64+65+66#

edit - actually, your site shows that girardi played against the best offensive players (HARO QOC) and best overall players (HART QOC), while staal was deployed against more defensive minded forwards (HARD QOC)

and to your point about using points.......when comparing how good a dman is overall.....give me the guy who puts up points and plays agaisnt the tougher competition, over the guy who doesn't put up points but maybe plays a bit better defensively against weaker competition.
- sensarmy_11

The only reason Girardi is on the 1st line over Staal is because he shoots righty. Staal > girardi

The only reason Girardi is on the 1st line over Staal is because he shoots righty. Staal > girardi
- rangerdanger94

so says you.......while every measurable attribute and stat says girardi is better.

so says you.......while every measurable attribute and stat says girardi is better.
- sensarmy_11

Girardi benefits from playing with mcdonagh. Staals linemate in stralman has 1 goal in his last 100 games.

And no, my site says staal played against the best overall competition. And staal blows away girardis possession numbers.

Girardi benefits from playing with mcdonagh. Staals linemate in stralman has 1 goal in his last 100 games.

And no, my site says staal played against the best overall competition. And staal blows away girardis possession numbers.
- rangerdanger94

actually, what your site says is that girardi plays against SIGNIFICANTLY better offensive forwards (top line players), while staal plays againts much better defensvie players (shut down forwards on the 3rd line)......to get the HART QOC, all they do is add the HARO and HARD together, and divide by 2.

you'd think that if staal was SO much better defensively, they'd have him out against the top offensive players.....no? it's much easier to have better possession numbers, when you're playing agaisnt crappy possession guys

and why are you criticizing me for saying production matters, and then turn around and use Stralman's lack of production as part of your argument?

This is crazy. Fevered debate about who the Rangers' second best defenseman is.

I guess it could be worse... we could be providing years' worth of troll fodder by claiming that Lazar >> Yakupov before he even plays an NHL game

This is crazy. Fevered debate about who the Rangers' second best defenseman is.

I guess it could be worse... we could be providing years' worth of troll fodder by claiming that Lazar >> Yakupov before he even plays an NHL game
- Mr_Clean

lol.....atleast its actual hockey talk. no trolling, or insults.....just 2 people having a rational discussion, which has nothing to do with the thread.

actually, what your site says is that girardi plays against SIGNIFICANTLY better offensive forwards (top line players), while staal plays againts much better defensvie players (shut down forwards on the 3rd line)......to get the HART QOC, all they do is add the HARO and HARD together, and divide by 2.

you'd think that if staal was SO much better defensively, they'd have him out against the top offensive players.....no? it's much easier to have better possession numbers, when you're playing agaisnt crappy possession guys

and why are you criticizing me for saying production matters, and then turn around and use Stralman's lack of production as part of your argument?
- sensarmy_11

Or - how about this...
1) McDonagh is their best defenseman
2) Staal is their 2nd best defenseman
3) They have the same handedness
4) They put their best defenseman and 3rd best defenseman (different handedness) against the top competition
5) Staal plays against weaker competition because 1st and 3rd is better than 2nd and 4th better defenseman.

Or do you think teams should play their 2nd best pairings against the best competition?

lol.....atleast its actual hockey talk. no trolling, or insults.....just 2 people having a rational discussion, which has nothing to do with the thread.
- sensarmy_11

True enough... Better than the usual

Any Rangers fan that watches literally every game will tell you that Staal is better than Girardi.

How do you measure positioning? Speed? Defensive awareness?

Girardi was our worst defenseman for long stretches of the playoffs. Staal played literally the best hockey of his career. Do you even watch hockey outside the Sens?
- rangerdanger94

Playofis a pretty small window to judge two players though, when the fact is that Girardi has been the better player over the last three years.

Agreed that he had a terrible playoffs, though. Uncharacteristic.

actually, what your site says is that girardi plays against SIGNIFICANTLY better offensive forwards (top line players), while staal plays againts much better defensvie players (shut down forwards on the 3rd line)......to get the HART QOC, all they do is add the HARO and HARD together, and divide by 2.

you'd think that if staal was SO much better defensively, they'd have him out against the top offensive players.....no? it's much easier to have better possession numbers, when you're playing agaisnt crappy possession guys

and why are you criticizing me for saying production matters, and then turn around and use Stralman's lack of production as part of your argument?
- sensarmy_11

As someone who doesn't give a poop about this at all, can confirm after reading both arguments and statistical measurements provided, everything seems to point to Girardi being the better player.

Or - how about this...
1) McDonagh is their best defenseman
2) Staal is their 2nd best defenseman
3) They have the same handedness
4) They put their best defenseman and 3rd best defenseman (different handedness) against the top competition
5) Staal plays against weaker competition because 1st and 3rd is better than 2nd and 4th better defenseman.

Or do you think teams should play their 2nd best pairings against the best competition?
- Mr_Clean

i just don't understand WHY people think staal is better, when the ONLY stat that says he's better is Rel Corsi, but that's because he plays against weaker offensive competition......other than that, girardi is better in every statistical category.

there is no tangible evidence that shows staal is better. it's easy to say that someone has more "defensive awareness", but when there's nothing to back it up, then all it is is an opinion. The tangible evidence says that girardi is the better player.

This is crazy. Fevered debate about who the Rangers' second best defenseman is.

I guess it could be worse... we could be providing years' worth of troll fodder by claiming that Lazar >> Yakupov before he even plays an NHL game
- Mr_Clean

We could start another Turris Vs Bozak Debate

i just don't understand WHY people think staal is better, when the ONLY stat that says he's better is Rel Corsi, but that's because he plays against weaker offensive competition......other than that, girardi is better in every statistical category.

there is no tangible evidence that shows staal is better. it's easy to say that someone has more "defensive awareness", but when there's nothing to back it up, then all it is is an opinion. The tangible evidence says that girardi is the better player.
- sensarmy_11

I watch them both play every single game. Every single game of their entire NHL careers. I am much more comfortable with Staal than I am Girardi. I've seen every little stick check, every time they force a guy like Ovechkin to the outside and shoot wide, every time they clear the crease, every time they make a great play on the PK to get the puck and dump it, every time they read the play and pick off a pass, every time they throw a huge bone shuttering hit...all the small things that you simply can't measure yet make a great defensive defenseman great.

Girardi has been the better defender over the last 3 years due to Staals injury issues, but he's been back to his old self since the Olympic break and him and Stralmans line was our most defensively consistent line going down the stretch and in the playoffs (a lot due to McDonaghs shoulder injury). Staal is capable of playing 25 minutes a game against the best offensive players in the league and shut them down consistently. Period.

I think all 3 are top pairing defenders and Staal is just ahead of Girardi IMO. Staal'ss extension will likely pay him more than Girardi even with the injury concerns for a reason.

For what it's worth, the same stats you say prove Girardi is better than Staal also say that Tanev is a bettet defender than Hamhuis. You just can't base an entire player, especially defenders, on stats, even advanced ones. They're a part of the puzzle but not the whole thing.

i just don't understand WHY people think staal is better, when the ONLY stat that says he's better is Rel Corsi, but that's because he plays against weaker offensive competition......other than that, girardi is better in every statistical category.

there is no tangible evidence that shows staal is better. it's easy to say that someone has more "defensive awareness", but when there's nothing to back it up, then all it is is an opinion. The tangible evidence says that girardi is the better player.
- sensarmy_11

Just to throw some fuel on the fire, the argument that Giardi plays with MCdonough is a good one. Sens fans of all people should know what playing with a great defensman can do to how a player appears.

We could start another Turris Vs Bozak Debate
- david22

don't do it........i think saying bozak's name 3 times has the "beetlejuice effect" for prock and byfuglien at me.

Just to throw some fuel on the fire, the argument that Giardi plays with MCdonough is a good one. Sens fans of all people should know what playing with a great defensman can do to how a player appears.
- david22

Staal played the last 2 years with Stralman who was a career journeyman until partnered with Staal. Did Stralman magically turn into a 2nd pairing (or now potentially top pairing with Tampa) defenseman out of nowhere? I think he made huge improvements in his game, but I think being partnered with a healthy and consistent Staal helped just as much.

Brian Boyle is considered by many to be one of the best forwards in his own zone. But his advanced stats all rank in the bottom 20 of the league I believe.

I watch them both play every single game. Every single game of their entire NHL careers. I am much more comfortable with Staal than I am Girardi. I've seen every little stick check, every time they force a guy like Ovechkin to the outside and shoot wide, every time they clear the crease, every time they make a great play on the PK to get the puck and dump it, every time they read the play and pick off a pass, every time they throw a huge bone shuttering hit...all the small things that you simply can't measure yet make a great defensive defenseman great.

Girardi has been the better defender over the last 3 years due to Staals injury issues, but he's been back to his old self since the Olympic break and him and Stralmans line was our most defensively consistent line going down the stretch and in the playoffs (a lot due to McDonaghs shoulder injury). Staal is capable of playing 25 minutes a game against the best offensive players in the league and shut them down consistently. Period.

I think all 3 are top pairing defenders and Staal is just ahead of Girardi IMO. Staal'ss extension will likely pay him more than Girardi even with the injury concerns for a reason.

For what it's worth, the same stats you say prove Girardi is better than Staal also say that Tanev is a bettet defender than Hamhuis. You just can't base an entire player, especially defenders, on stats, even advanced ones. They're a part of the puzzle but not the whole thing.
- rangerdanger94

fair enough.

personally, i believe the stats, and would take girardi over staal............i think both are close, but my personal preference is to side with the tangible numbers.

what is happening in here today

- TheMike12

Yeah, these Yak trade proposals are out to lunch. I see it this way: Yak's trade value, for some reason, appears to be pretty low. Lazar's been hyped beyond belief, but may be exactly what Edmonton needs. He has skills, size, strength and maturity and projects to be at least a 2nd line centre. He actually reminds me of Turris. Bonus: Oil Kings Captain. The only down side is his age.

I think if EDM really wants to trade Yak for a centre, they would consider an even, straight-up trade for Lazar. If I'm Murray, I 'add' Colin Greening. There aren't a whole lot of top centres available right now, so maybe trading for the near future is a good option.

Yeah, these Yak trade proposals are out to lunch. I see it this way: Yak's trade value, for some reason, appears to be pretty low. Lazar's been hyped beyond belief, but may be exactly what Edmonton needs. He has skills, size, strength and maturity and projects to be at least a 2nd line centre. He actually reminds me of Turris. Bonus: Oil Kings Captain. The only down side is his age.

I think if EDM really wants to trade Yak for a centre, they would consider an even, straight-up trade for Lazar. If I'm Murray, I 'add' Colin Greening. There aren't a whole lot of top centres available right now, so maybe trading for the near future is a good option.
- Stringer74

I don't think they'd consider Lazar straight up. They'd be trading a 1st overall player who's already been in the NHL and had success...one that has potential to be a 40 goal scorer...for a prospect with no NHL experience and realistically, has a ceiling of a great 2nd liner (from what I've read).

Any trade for Yak will bring back a return similar to what Seguin got the Bruins.

I don't think they'd consider Lazar straight up. They'd be trading a 1st overall player who's already been in the NHL and had success...one that has potential to be a 40 goal scorer...for a prospect with no NHL experience and realistically, has a ceiling of a great 2nd liner (from what I've read).

Any trade for Yak will bring back a return similar to what Seguin got the Bruins.
- rangerdanger94

Yeah, it's the lack of NHL experience that stalls that trade, but I think Lazar is probably very desirable for EDM. I don't think OTT would have to add very much to make that deal happen.