I'm not going to fight you on this again. Denial doesn't make it go away though.
- PhillySportsGuy

There is no denial involved. You said the same things to me during the Corsi discussions, and why I think that's flawed. And as more and more information comes to light, in how teams are using analytics, points more and more to how I was right. And I'm right on this also.

It's this simple. If you want to evaluate a player on zone entries, just knowing the percentage of successful entries with that defenseman on the ice, isn't enough to make a reliable judgement. It brings the same issues into play as with Corsi. What you need to know is how often that defenseman made the right or wrong read, and how many of those successful zone entires that defenseman was responsible because of a poor decision or play. And there's only one way to know that, and it's not in looking at those stats.

Speaking of fat guys....

Given the Flyers' organizational insistence that these guys actually show up in shape this year, which guy will be most written about showing up to camp in the best shape of his life?
- johndewar

I agree it will be Jake, as he is starting from the lowest level meaning any increased level of fitness will be magnified. Then I will go with MDZ (A lot to prove)B. Schenn and Coots. Worst shape?

And as more and more information comes to light, in how teams are using analytics, points more and more to how I was right. And I'm right on this also.
- MJL

(yeah, 'cuz if there's one thing the summer of analytics has shown us, it's that NHL teams are busy doubling down on 'watching the game')

I agree it will be Jake, as he is starting from the lowest level meaning any increased level of fitness will be magnified. Then I will go with MDZ (A lot to prove)B. Schenn and Coots. Worst shape?
- coffee junkie

Grossmann

Breaking: Flyers sign Shea Weber to 14-year offer sheet

http://sports.yahoo.com/b...lyers-052925384--nhl.html

(yeah, 'cuz if there's one thing the summer of analytics has shown us, it's that NHL teams are busy doubling down on 'watching the game')
- Tomahawk

Still not getting it! Teams are undoutedly using analytics and have been for a while. But they aren't using the same analytics that the fans have access to. That is the point that I brought to the forefront, along with how the data is flawed.

And what did Ron Hextall say he relies on analytics percentage wise? 5-7%. So yes teams are still relying on watching the game more then analytics. That has not changed. And it won't.

Breaking: Flyers sign Shea Weber to 14-year offer sheet

http://sports.yahoo.com/b...lyers-052925384--nhl.html
- jmatchett383

I can't say I'm all that excited.

But they aren't using the same analytics that the fans have access to.
- MJL

Yeah, those guys who run sites replete with those useless fan analytics don't get hired by NHL teams... oh wait.

And what did Ron Hextall say he relies on analytics percentage wise? 5-7%. So yes teams are still relying on watching the game more then analytics.
- MJL

5-7% is a significant margin, and that's as much weight as many of us were hoping he'd put on them. Stats and scouting go hand in hand... as PSG was saying, the numbers can help you pinpoint trouble spots and/or things to watch. They aren't there as some irrefutable fountain of divine truth-telling.

Still not getting it! Teams are undoutedly using analytics and have been for a while. But they aren't using the same analytics that the fans have access to. That is the point that I brought to the forefront, along with how the data is flawed.

And what did Ron Hextall say he relies on analytics percentage wise? 5-7%. So yes teams are still relying on watching the game more then analytics. That has not changed. And it won't.
- MJL

So what you are saying is that there is some new and super secretive analytical system that fans are not privy of?

Yeah, those guys who run sites replete with those useless fan analytics don't get hired by NHL teams... oh wait.


- Tomahawk

Why are they being hired is the question. If a team is just going to use the same analytics that are available on public websites, why hire the guy? Just continue to get the numbers for free! LOL That's simple common sense. They are hiring those guys for their knowledge of the statistical calculations and formulas. The data and how that is collected is the key!

5-7% is a significant margin, and that's as much weight as many of us were hoping he'd put on them. Stats and scouting go hand in hand... as PSG was saying, the numbers can help you pinpoint trouble spots and/or things to watch. They aren't there as some irrefutable fountain of divine truth-telling.
- Tomahawk

The right numbers with the right data can help you. Still not getting it. And with the point you made, 5-7% is not that significant when comparing it to actually scouting and watching the game.

So what you are saying is that there is some new and super secretive analytical system that fans are not privy of?
- jak521

Nope, not what I'm saying. If you've followed along with what I've always said, the data is the issue, not the philosophy or statistical formulas.

Nope, not what I'm saying. If you've followed along with what I've always said, the data is the issue, not the philosophy or statistical formulas.
- MJL

No wait... its gotta be your bull.

Why are they being hired is the question. If a team is just going to use the same analytics that are available on public websites, why hire the guy? Just continue to get the numbers for free! LOL That's simple common sense. They are hiring those guys for their knowledge of the statistical calculations and formulas. The data and how that is collected is the key!
- MJL

Proprietary ownership is one factor... the other is that most of these guys that are getting hired are some of the strongest proponents of shot-based metrics around (and some of them have no secret formulas to offer).

Proprietary ownership is one factor... the other is that most of these guys that are getting hired are some of the strongest proponents of shot-based metrics around (and some of them have no secret formulas to offer).
- Tomahawk

And also the fact that those hired were forced to take down their websites. So the information is no longer "free" to the public/other teams.

The fact that teams are, technically, hiring proponents for shot-based metrics and purchasing their data should speak for itself.

Breaking: Flyers sign Shea Weber to 14-year offer sheet

http://sports.yahoo.com/b...lyers-052925384--nhl.html
- jmatchett383

Why? Why do you mock us so?

Breaking: Flyers sign Shea Weber to 14-year offer sheet

http://sports.yahoo.com/b...lyers-052925384--nhl.html
- jmatchett383

I'm feeling optimistic...

I agree it will be Jake, as he is starting from the lowest level meaning any increased level of fitness will be magnified. Then I will go with MDZ (A lot to prove)B. Schenn and Coots. Worst shape?
- coffee junkie

My guess will be VLC or Braden Schenn. Don't ask me why, its just a feeling.

Grossmann
- Streit2ThePoint

Maybe due to the injury but the guy is a warrior, I'll go with Bellemare because I hate the French. JK. I'll go with Raffle. I saw his work out footage and they were dogging it!

For real how about Emery.

My guess will be VLC or Braden Schenn. Don't ask me why, its just a feeling.
- MBFlyerfan

Best or worst for those two?

Best or worst for those two?
- coffee junkie

Best shape.

For worst shape I will go with Voracek.

Maybe due to the injury but the guy is a warrior, I'll go with Bellemare because I hate the French. JK. I'll go with Raffle. I saw his work out footage and they were dogging it!

For real how about Emery.
- coffee junkie

You should not be joking when you hate the French. Let the French hatred fly!

You should not be joking when you hate the French. Let the French hatred fly!
- jmatchett383

Your mother was a hamster, and your father smelled of ELDERBERRIES!

Proprietary ownership is one factor... the other is that most of these guys that are getting hired are some of the strongest proponents of shot-based metrics around (and some of them have no secret formulas to offer).
- Tomahawk

What those guys are good at is compiling the raw data into usable information. And how to best use that information in conjunction with others. That is what they are advising teams on and why they were hired. And also probably in hopes that the same people who developed these statisticas, can develop other methods of statistical analysis in the future, that the team they work for, now only has access to. The issue was never the science behind it. The issue from my point of view, which has been shown to be true, based on infomation and statements made by teams in general, is the data collected. Websites just don't have the resources to break down the game or data that a team has. And I think we'll see in the future, that as access to better data collection becomes available. The statistics that the fans have access to, will become better, more accurate, and more useful.

And also the fact that those hired were forced to take down their websites. So the information is no longer "free" to the public/other teams.

The fact that teams are, technically, hiring proponents for shot-based metrics and purchasing their data should speak for itself.
- bradleyc4

Where did the people who run those websites get their data? They aren't purchasing their data. Teams could have that for free.

Your mother was a hamster, and your father smelled of ELDERBERRIES!
- MBFlyerfan

Go away!
Or I will taunt you a second time!