It's not that he's without good traits: he's very mobile, makes solid passes and plays tight man coverage.

That he allows opponents to gain entry into the Flyers zone with the puck so easily far outweighs those positives.

And I think that plays out well in the analytics and the eye test.
- bradleyc4

I think the bold indicates the core of the disagreement. I don't think it far outweighs anything. But nothing I say will change any minds and vica versa.

Sounds like something that can be fairly easily correctable with better coaching and a better understanding of the Flyers' system.
- jmatchett383

That remains to be seen.

I'm not saying it can't be corrected or improved.

I think the bold indicates the core of the disagreement. I don't think it far outweighs anything. But nothing I say will change any minds and vica versa.
- MBFlyerfan

Agreed.

That remains to be seen.

I'm not saying it can't be corrected or improved.
- bradleyc4

The thing in support of your idea is that it was pretty much the same on the Island as it was here.

It's not that he's without good traits: he's very mobile, makes solid passes and plays tight man coverage.

That he allows opponents to gain entry into the Flyers zone with the puck so easily far outweighs those positives.

And I think that shows up well in the analytics and eye test arguments.
- bradleyc4

First of all we need to see more of a sample size to see how MacDonald is going to play overall as a Flyer. Secondly, in my view, it's clear from watching MacDonald play, that he is a talented and solid NHL top 4 defenseman. That's what to this point in the sample size the eye test shows me about MacDonald.

More Breakingerest: Flyers trade Dave Poulin

http://news.google.com/ne...UFAAAAIBAJ&pg=4932,322855
- Streit2ThePoint

Most Breakingerestest: NHL to expand to 12 teams

www.flyershistory.com/cgi-bin/hm.cgi?014hm

The thing in support of your idea is that it was pretty much the same on the Island as it was here.
- MBFlyerfan

Playing on the Island is not necessarily a good thing, especially considering the role he was expected to play there. His sample size in Philly is small. This upcoming season will be a VERY telling one for him.

The thing in support of your idea is that it was pretty much the same on the Island as it was here.
- MBFlyerfan

That's why I'm so skeptical about improvement. But I'm trying to be open-minded about the possibility.

Playing on the Island is not necessarily a good thing, especially considering the role he was expected to play there. His sample size in Philly is small. This upcoming season will be a VERY telling one for him.
- jmatchett383

I don't think gap control is an issue that is brought on by usage, or by the team you play on (when you know that the coach doesn't want his defensemen to play that way).

I have a question about NHL contraction.

Everyone always seems to want certain teams (TB, Phoenix, Fla, etc.) to be more or less run out of town by the owners, which is never goiingto happen.

But, let's say a team is simply hemorrhaging money daily, and at some point they straight up fold. I'm talking American Appliance-style folding, where they just cease to exist one morning. Although it's not likely to happen (selling the team for anything would be a better idea), is that possible? What would the implications be?

The thing in support of your idea is that it was pretty much the same on the Island as it was here.
- MBFlyerfan

Both teams were suspect in 5 on 5 play, were mediocre to poor defensively as a team. Certainly MacDonald has some culpability in that, for sure, as does every player on those teams. But in my view, the Flyers got themselves a pretty good young defenseman that is only going to get better. And with better puck support and back pressure, along with any improvements that MacDonald needs to make, the Flyers defense will improve with the addition of MacDonald.

That's why I'm so skeptical about improvement. But I'm trying to be open-minded about the possibility.
- bradleyc4

I can understand that. For me, the fact that two completely different coaching staffs had the guy as their top minutes eater tells me a lot.

I don't think gap control is an issue that is brought on by usage, or by the team you play on (when you know that the coach doesn't want his defensemen to play that way).
- bradleyc4

I completely disagree. A coach can preach gap control all he wants. Players still have to execute it. And usage is definitely part of it.

I don't think gap control is an issue that is brought on by usage, or by the team you play on (when you know that the coach doesn't want his defensemen to play that way).
- bradleyc4

I'm talking about his overall play. The Islanders wanted to use him like Shea Weber or Chris Pronger, which is a task he wasn't up to. He was playing top minutes on an island by himself (no pun intended) against top players, and he isn't capable of handling that task. As for the Flyers, I'd like to see him over a full season with a full training camp to see how he does.

Most Breakingerestest: NHL to expand to 12 teams

www.flyershistory.com/cgi-bin/hm.cgi?014hm
- jmatchett383

As far as what those guys bring to an NHL team, I agree, it's not about the data at all. Which is why I repeatedly stated that the science of analytics is not the issue. The science is very sound.
- MJL

If the science is sound, then we have really nothing left to argue about, right?

Better data will be pursued and collected, we'll glean new insights into the game as a result, and the sport will be that much better for it. Meanwhile, scouts will still watch games, and GM's can still make decisions without having to pick up their TI-82's.

Defition of hunky dory.

I have a question about NHL contraction.

Everyone always seems to want certain teams (TB, Phoenix, Fla, etc.) to be more or less run out of town by the owners, which is never goiingto happen.

But, let's say a team is simply hemorrhaging money daily, and at some point they straight up fold. I'm talking American Appliance-style folding, where they just cease to exist one morning. Although it's not likely to happen (selling the team for anything would be a better idea), is that possible? What would the implications be?
- jmatchett383

I'm guessing the NHL would assume ownership under almost all circumstances, unless they actually wanted the team to fold.

I'm guessing the NHL would assume ownership under almost all circumstances, unless they actually wanted the team to fold.
- Tomahawk

I would also think the NHLPA would have to throw in whatever resources they had as well.

Fewer NHL teams means fewer NHL jobs and protecting jobs are what unions are one of the things unions are supposed to do in the first place.

With Timonen going down, Streit's age and the number of minutes Berube played him, I'm not sold that MacDonald's useage will be much different in Philly than NY.

I don't think he's as bad as the stats indicate, but I also know that I'm not sold he's capable of the role the Flyers seem to expect him to play. Looking at this team, he's basically the 2nd or 3rd defenseman. That means he's either facing top competition or he's anchoring the 2nd pair.

I hope he's up to it

I'm guessing the NHL would assume ownership under almost all circumstances, unless they actually wanted the team to fold.
- Tomahawk

I'd assume they'd step in and relocate or do what they did for Phoenix

I'm talking about his overall play. The Islanders wanted to use him like Shea Weber or Chris Pronger, which is a task he wasn't up to. He was playing top minutes on an island by himself (no pun intended) against top players, and he isn't capable of handling that task. As for the Flyers, I'd like to see him over a full season with a full training camp to see how he does.
- jmatchett383

And if the Flyers try and use him the same way, good chance that there will be some issues. In my opinion he is not a top pairing defenseman.

Most Breakingerestest: NHL to expand to 12 teams

www.flyershistory.com/cgi-bin/hm.cgi?014hm
- jmatchett383

Geez, first they go from 7 to 6 players, then they allow forward passing and now 12 teams?????

Thats it, me and my dinosaur are going back to our cave!

Geez, first they go from 7 to 6 players, then they allow forward passing and now 12 teams?????

Thats it, me and my dinosaur are going back to our cave!
- BiggE

BRING BACK THE ROVER!

I'm talking about his overall play. The Islanders wanted to use him like Shea Weber or Chris Pronger, which is a task he wasn't up to. He was playing top minutes on an island by himself (no pun intended) against top players, and he isn't capable of handling that task. As for the Flyers, I'd like to see him over a full season with a full training camp to see how he does.
- jmatchett383

Luckily the Flyers are stacked with top pairing guys so they won't have to ask MacDonald to handle anything he isn't capable of doing.

I have a question about NHL contraction.

Everyone always seems to want certain teams (TB, Phoenix, Fla, etc.) to be more or less run out of town by the owners, which is never goiingto happen.

But, let's say a team is simply hemorrhaging money daily, and at some point they straight up fold. I'm talking American Appliance-style folding, where they just cease to exist one morning. Although it's not likely to happen (selling the team for anything would be a better idea), is that possible? What would the implications be?
- jmatchett383

It happened to Cleveland in 1978, they merged them with Minnesota whose ownership agreed to assume Cleveland's debt.