How many NFL teams are using sports science today? How many will be 3 years from now if it works?

How many teams used the neutral-zone trap in the 93 (or whatever year NJ started). How many did it 2 years later?

You can go all the way back to Fred Shero days. Someone will always be the innovator. Then it gets copied.
- TheGreat28

I'm not sure what this has to do with drafting or not drafting goalies, but:

- not sure how many NFL teams are using it
- trap was not invented by NJ

Keep track all you want. You can try to spin it any way you want, but it doesnt change a thing. He signed Bryz to a contract that almost all immediately thought was overboard and had a high risk of failure. And boy did it blow up in his face. Fortunately he was able to use on of the, if not the largest buy-outs in NHL history... but, meh.. no biggie.
- jak521

To be fair, the Bryz contract size was a result of a bidding war. Holmgren vs. Homey Da Clown.

Actually, what should be looked at is what caused him to make the mistake...

I think it was Mr. Snyder. I don't put this 100% on Homer. Ed wanted a bonified #1 goalie, Bryz was really the only one out there and Ed wanted to make a statement that the goalie-go-round in Philly was stopping, and he said so publicly...So I don't think Homer had much of a choice here and as the Coyote Fans pointed out immediately, we were screwed...Bryz was not that good...
- JW98FlyerFan

Part of what I meant by "the moment the mistake was made" was the rational that lead to it. I agree, that the thinking is what makes it a mistake or not. Otherwise it's just hindsight bias. I guess the real thing being discuss is how do you judge the magnitude of the mistake?

I'll say this for the Bryz deal: it was a deal Homer signed, but he had Snider looming over him to do it (or something similar) no matter the cost.

Not sure you can isolate the folly of the Bryz signing from all the subsequent stuff that happened... Carter/Richards, Bob, not having the tagging space to re-sign Carle in-season... it's all interrelated.
- Tomahawk

This is a fair point, and I actually forgot about the Carter/Richards impact. But most people generally think that worked out ok for the Flyers, given who we got back.

This is just a fun discussion anyway. But I really do think the fact that we haven't had a drafted defenseman since Bundy to play more than 100 games or whatever it is, has been a huge huge problem.

I remember arguing this point during the Weber fiasco. I think after that they finally realized their mistake. Snider came out and said it. Holmgren came out and said it. Better late then never I guess.

And they truly have turned things around. But they need to shift back to getting some skilled forwards in the next 2 drafts. I'm ok with loading up on D first since they take longer to develop. A guy like Aube-Kubel could easily make the big club next year.

I actually agree with MJL on this one. The difference is an individual mistake versus a mistake with greater long-term consequences. If the Flyers were not a deep-pockets team that could easily write off a 100 million dollars, OR if the league didn't allow the two compliance buyouts, then the Bryz signing would have set the organization back a half dozen years.

In terms of which mistake has had a great impact on the team today and unfortunately will continue to do so over the next 2 years or so, that is the inability to draft and develop defensemen.

The ripple effect of that strategy, or lack thereof, is a defense that lacks any true shutdown or Norris caliber defensemen but yet disproportionally is sucking up the salary cap.
- TheGreat28

So lets investigate that a bit further...

Should we look at all of the draft picks chosen under Homer?

2006- 2nd, 2nd, 6th * First year before Homer
2007- 2nd rounder
2008- 1st, 3rd
2009-10: No picks until round three, 3rd, 3rd, 6th, 7th, 7th
2011- 4th
2012- 3rd, 4th, 5th, 7th
2013- 1st, 2nd, 5th, 7th
2014- 1st, 3rd, 7th

During that span the Flyers drafted 49 players... 22 of which were d-men. That is 44% of all players drafted being d-men.

I'll say this for the Bryz deal: it was a deal Homer signed, but he had Snider looming over him to do it (or something similar) no matter the cost.
- jmatchett383

For sure. I don't think it exonerates Holmgren from all blame, but I do think his hand was forced.

I'll say this for the Bryz deal: it was a deal Homer signed, but he had Snider looming over him to do it (or something similar) no matter the cost.
- jmatchett383

Totally agree there.

So lets investigate that a bit further...

Should we look at all of the draft picks chosen under Homer?

2006- 2nd, 2nd, 6th * First year before Homer
2007- 2nd rounder
2008- 1st, 3rd
2009-10: No picks until round three, 3rd, 3rd, 6th, 7th, 7th
2011- 4th
2012- 3rd, 4th, 5th, 7th
2013- 1st, 2nd, 5th, 7th
2014- 1st, 3rd, 7th

During that span the Flyers drafted 49 players... 22 of which were d-men. That is 44% of all players drafted being d-men.
- jak521

A lot of questionable picks and late rounders though. And still the development was poor to a certain extent given all of those dmen drafted that aren't in the NHL.

I'll say this for the Bryz deal: it was a deal Homer signed, but he had Snider looming over him to do it (or something similar) no matter the cost.
- jmatchett383

Exactly, Homer didn't make that move on his own.

I don't think drafting and developing D is the root of the problem either. The root of the problem is really how the Flyers used their picks. Homer used several picks to acquire players, he used most of his first round picks on forwards (not being critical of this) and he used some mid round picks on guys with limited upside (brutes).

These things prevent the team from adding depth to the farm system. Scouting is very important, but even the best scouts admit that the draft, particularly the mid-late rounds, is a bit of a lottery. The more tickets you have, the greater chance you have of winning. Homer just didn't have as many tickets as he should have.
- PhillySportsGuy

I agree with this as well. I would never draft a guy whose ceiling is a 3rd or 4th line agitator, energy guy, etc. You can easily sign a Harry Z vs. draft a Zac Rinaldo, or sign a Max Talbot.

I would rather them gamble on an Aube-Kubel, or even an Andreas Nodl, or some Russian prospect that may never come here. You only need to hit on a few of these, and the acquisition cost through a draft, FA or trade is high. The Detroit model so to speak.

I actually agree with this 100%.

There was a study done awhile back that found that the rate of goalie picks panning out isn't considerably worse than dmen, but I'd still much rather identify a fully developed Mase/Bernier/Rask/Varly/Bob/Lehtonen/ Schneider/Bishop/etc as a trade target than roll the dice in the draft.
- Tomahawk

Thanks! At least one other guy on that lonely island with me

If I wasn't so lazy I would look through the Devils draft history to see how many goalies they've drafted since Marty, and how high. This would be a shrewd kind of Lamoriello strategy.

I apologize for being the first to bring up Bobby Ryan today but have any of you googled him this summer. Like Bobby Ryan news. I swear, Ottawa is publicly pressuring that guy to stay by posting his every word. Blogs about teammates trying to convince him to stay. Whether or not he feels they need a captain. Whether or not the team is negotiating.

For me this isn't as much about Ryan, as how desperate Ottawa is fast becoming.

So lets investigate that a bit further...

Should we look at all of the draft picks chosen under Homer?

2006- 2nd, 2nd, 6th * First year before Homer
2007- 2nd rounder
2008- 1st, 3rd
2009-10: No picks until round three, 3rd, 3rd, 6th, 7th, 7th
2011- 4th
2012- 3rd, 4th, 5th, 7th
2013- 1st, 2nd, 5th, 7th
2014- 1st, 3rd, 7th

During that span the Flyers drafted 49 players... 22 of which were d-men. That is 44% of all players drafted being d-men.
- jak521

Good numbers, but besides the #1 in 2008 (Sbisa, traded away for Pronger) they are all a reach pick with very low percentage of panning out..

I think to a previous point made, they did not have the picks they needed, in those drafts they should have had 56 picks and they only had 44, that is 12 more bodies to have a chance to be an NHL player...that is what hurts more I think

A lot of questionable picks and late rounders though. And still the development was poor to a certain extent given all of those dmen drafted that aren't in the NHL.
- NickTheKid87

Completely agree on both points. If they started a year or two earlier focusing on dmen, they might have drafted Hamilton instead of Couts.

A lot of questionable picks and late rounders though. And still the development was poor to a certain extent given all of those dmen drafted that aren't in the NHL.
- NickTheKid87

But not really... I thought so as well.

In the 8 drafts that Homer ran, he had 1st and or 2nds in 6 of them. Of those 6 drafts he took a d-man in the 1st round 3 time, 2nd round 2 times ( only had a 2nd in 4 drafts). That is 5 d-men selected out of a possible 10 picks.

The later rounds are always gonna be a bit of a crap shoot.. hell outside of the 1st round it is a crap shoot really.

I get your point. You are Paul Holmgren
- jak521

And again, we see you're reply to my posts not only completely miss the point being made, but also going completely away from the actual conversation.

You don't even know what my point is, or what point I'm making. That is obvious.

I apologize for being the first to bring up Bobby Ryan today but have any of you googled him this summer. Like Bobby Ryan news. I swear, Ottawa is publicly pressuring that guy to stay by posting his every word. Blogs about teammates trying to convince him to stay. Whether or not he feels they need a captain. Whether or not the team is negotiating.

For me this isn't as much about Ryan, as how desperate Ottawa is fast becoming.
- SuperSchennBros

Bobby Ryan is turning into the most overrated player in the league. For a guy that's been publicly criticized for not giving his all and having only scored below his career average in points per game the last 3 seasons, he sure does get a lot of attention.

Good numbers, but besides the #1 in 2008 (Sbisa, traded away for Pronger) they are all a reach pick with very low percentage of panning out..

I think to a previous point made, they did not have the pick they needed, in those drafts they should have had 56 picks and they only had 44, that is 12 more bodies to have a chance to be an NHL player...that is what hurts more I think
- JW98FlyerFan

So to go with that line we have to investigate every other move made and decide if it was worth the pick.

Like the Carter and Richards and Grossmann and Eminger and .... you get my point.

The Pronger trade is the easiest to look at... He suffered a totally freak career ending injury. That hurt the back end, hell still does... but it nearly got us a Cup.

I actually agree with this 100%.

There was a study done awhile back that found that the rate of goalie picks panning out isn't considerably worse than dmen, but I'd still much rather identify a fully developed Mase/Bernier/Rask/Varly/Bob/Lehtonen/ Schneider/Bishop/etc as a trade target than roll the dice in the draft.
- Tomahawk

I'd like to take a goalie in the draft each year, but never in the first round.

And again, we see you're reply to my posts not only completely miss the point being made, but also going completely away from the actual conversation.

You don't even know what my point is, or what point I'm making. That is obvious.
- MJL

I fully know.. I just don't feel it is necessary to fellate your ego.

The signing was bad, but its impact minimal.

I understand that.

My point is that I am looking strictly at the singular out come of the move. Bryzgalov. What did he do for the Flyers. How did he pan out. Not the fact that it really isnt killing the team because they got a mulligan.

So to go with that line we have to investigate every other move made and decide if it was worth the pick.

Like the Carter and Richards and Grossmann and Eminger and .... you get my point.

The Pronger trade is the easiest to look at... He suffered a totally freak career ending injury. That hurt the back end, hell still does... but it nearly got us a Cup.
- jak521

Agree 100%, but looking back to 2006, the only 3 D men we picked that had any NHL possibility are Sbisa, MAB (an dI dont think he is coming back) and Oliver L, who is still a work in progress and might not ever crack the big club again. Now the drafting plan changed in 2012, so I was not looking at the talent pool we have now, but the late round picks pre 2012 are just shots in the dark...

But not really... I thought so as well.

In the 8 drafts that Homer ran, he had 1st and or 2nds in 6 of them. Of those 6 drafts he took a d-man in the 1st round 3 time, 2nd round 2 times ( only had a 2nd in 4 drafts). That is 5 d-men selected out of a possible 10 picks.

The later rounds are always gonna be a bit of a crap shoot.. hell outside of the 1st round it is a crap shoot really.
- jak521

The defensemen they drafted from 2007-2013 were:

Kevin Marshall (2007 Round 2)
Luca Sbisa (2008 Round 1)
MA Bourdon (2008 Round 2)
Simon Bertilsson (2009 Round 3)
Oliver Lauridsen (2009 Round 7)
Nick Luukko (2010 Round 6)
Ricard Blidstrand (2010 Round 7)
Colin Suellentrop (2011 Round 4)
Shayne Gostisbehere (2012 Round 3)
Fredrik Larsson (2012 Round 4)
Reece Willcox (2012 Round 5)
Valeri Vasiliev (2012 Round 7)
Samuel Morin (2013 Round 1)
Robert Hagg (2013 Round 2)
Terrance Amorosa (2013 Round 5)
David Drake (2013 Round 7)

Not much to write home about and a clear focus on drafting more dmen in general since 2012 which could be attributed to what happened in previous drafts.

I apologize for being the first to bring up Bobby Ryan today but have any of you googled him this summer. Like Bobby Ryan news. I swear, Ottawa is publicly pressuring that guy to stay by posting his every word. Blogs about teammates trying to convince him to stay. Whether or not he feels they need a captain. Whether or not the team is negotiating.

For me this isn't as much about Ryan, as how desperate Ottawa is fast becoming.
- SuperSchennBros

Before the Alfredsson meltdown, they appeared to be trending up. They seem to be a much less attractive landing spot since then.

I'd like to take a goalie in the draft each year, but never in the first round.
- Feanor

Yeah, at least this.