He's lead the NFL in offense in his tenure too. But the results aren't as much of the point (given the low sample size) as are the concepts behind them. You could use Fred Shero as an example too and there's a much bigger sample size.
- NickTheKid87

Like I said, I'm not discounting your point, simply that Chip Kelly's results so far have had a fair bit of good luck built into them.

You get GB without Rodgers.
You get Dallas without Romo (could be bad luck, who knows)
Your 2013 team is basically injury free, barring Vick.
Vick goes down and Foles emerges (wouldn't have happened in Vick was healthy).
You get a fairly easy 2013 schedule.

Not taking anything away from Foles or the team, just that they've yet to be really tested. But it looks like that's coming up.

You're right. I also don't think Kelly has all the pieces in place yet; especially on defense. I think the Eagles defense is entertainingly awful.
- johndewar

That's how I see them. One way or another, almost every Eagles' play is exciting. As a "meh" Eagles fan, that's what I'd prefer, over a boring grind-it-out win. That's what I have the Flyers for.

Like I said, I'm not discounting your point, simply that Chip Kelly's results so far have had a fair bit of good luck built into them.

You get GB without Rodgers.
You get Dallas without Romo (could be bad luck, who knows)
Your 2013 team is basically injury free, barring Vick.
Vick goes down and Foles emerges (wouldn't have happened in Vick was healthy).
You get a fairly easy 2013 schedule.

Not taking anything away from Foles or the team, just that they've yet to be really tested. But it looks like that's coming up.
- jmatchett383

Yeah but every team last year got the Eagles with Patrick Chung, so it all cancels out

Which makes the hirings of all these young, untraditionalists so encouraging... the NHL establishment is in dire need of a disruptive, kick in the groin.
- Tomahawk

The most ironic part about these disruptive people is that the traditionalists that push back against them are products of previously disruptive people. If a nontraditional idea ends up leading to success, it'll be adopted as the norm (after the initial push back from the traditionalists) and this pattern will continue over and over.

I don;t think his mistakes, especially in terms of coverage, were worse than the mistakes supposedly strong defensive guys like Schenn or Grossmann made at points last season, or the kind of mistakes a veteran like Meszaros made before he was traded.

Teams really value size when looking at depth defensemen. It's why Gostisbehere was available in round three. If he was 3 inches taller and 20 lbs heavier, he's probably a mid first rounder. Gustafsson, like Diaz, is smaller. Teams are going to roll the dice on a bigger frame or toughness before a small dude.
- Jsaquella

teams want talent. simple as that. yet not 1 team wanted hm or at least that is who it seems. if he was good enough he would be in the nhl right now not russia

so where did you see that ghost was available in rd 3 becuase of his size? you really think that was the main reason he was drafted in the 3rd rd? how much has he grown since he was drafted?

I agree re: Alt if it's a long-term situation. Right now, though, the veteran Manning would get the callup for a short-term absence.

Lauridsen is pretty much strictly an AHL player. He is big, physical and competitive. He's improved over the years as a defensive Dman but, but NHL standards, is still positionally iffy due to mediocre skating and below-average with the puck (yes, below Grossmann with the puck). His heavy shot is essentially meaningless in game action because it takes him so long to wind up and fire.
- bmeltzer

Sometimes I think you have to look at contracts. There's no longer recall waivers. Manning if called up would be exposed to waivers to be sent back down. Lauridsen is actually on a one way contract this year that pays 600K. I think that is there as a deterrant to other teams in claiming the player.

Yeah but every team last year got the Eagles with Patrick Chung, so it all cancels out
- TheGreat28

That is a hell of a point. He's like the Brooks Orpik of that team; just getting rid of him makes them better.

Like I said, I'm not discounting your point, simply that Chip Kelly's results so far have had a fair bit of good luck built into them.

You get GB without Rodgers.
You get Dallas without Romo (could be bad luck, who knows)
Your 2013 team is basically injury free, barring Vick.
Vick goes down and Foles emerges (wouldn't have happened in Vick was healthy).
You get a fairly easy 2013 schedule.

Not taking anything away from Foles or the team, just that they've yet to be really tested. But it looks like that's coming up.
- jmatchett383

No doubt. Chip Kelly is far from proven but he is making waves with his changes. I don't think anyone can argue that his conditioning regimen is going to catch on. His players have said that they're in the best shape of their lives, which is saying a lot given that these guys are professional athletes.

No doubt. Chip Kelly is far from proven but he is making waves with his changes. I don't think anyone can argue that his conditioning regimen is going to catch on. His players have said that they're in the best shape of their lives, which is saying a lot given that these guys are professional athletes.
- NickTheKid87

Cary Williams, Eagles' defenive spokesman, disagrees.

I'm not sold a Torres or Tootoo would be deterred by Stortini or even Rosehill, who is a good fighter. That's kind of my issue with icing an enforcer.

Now a days, guys like Torres or Neil will still lay a big hit, and then turtle if a guy like Rosehill or Orr comes over to dispense justice. They will only fight a skilled guy or a non tough guy. Generally when a Rosehill fights, he's fighting a guy like Orr anyhow. Not sure how Rosehill fighting another team's enforcer stops Neil or Tootoo from taking a run at a skill guy.

From a strictly AHL point of view, I get Stortini. Different league and style of play.
- Jsaquella

Bill stated wannabe Torres or Tootoo. Those guys aren't going to turtle because their fighting and willingness to do so, is their potential ticket to the NHL, or even a solid AHL career.
NHL veterans like Neil or Torres have already proven their toughness ans what they're willing to do.

Cary Williams, Eagles' defenive spokesman, disagrees.
- jmatchett383

*insert .gif of Cary Williams getting burned by a wide out*

Bill stated wannabe Torres or Tootoo. Those guys aren't going to turtle because their fighting and willingness to do so, is their potential ticket to the NHL, or even a solid AHL career.
NHL veterans like Neil or Torres have already proven their toughness ans what they're willing to do.
- MJL

The overall problem is that a goon (enforcer, whatever) is not really a deterrent nowadays. Back when the Flyers had McCarthy or Brashear, the game was A BIT different where they could act as a deterrent. Not so much now.

As people have said, you need team toughness, not individual toughness. Even if the Sabres had Jon Scott, Lucic is still going to hit Miller. Okay, 5 minutes later Jon Scott will punch him a few times, and get Boston a PP for instigation and Scott will get 17 PIM. Now, if 5 guys are gonna pile onto you because they all have each others' back, no matter which 5 guys it is, that's a different matter.

*insert .gif of every Eagles secondary player since Brian Dawkins getting burned by a wide out*
- NickTheKid87

ftfy

Bill stated wannabe Torres or Tootoo. Those guys aren't going to turtle because their fighting and willingness to do so, is their potential ticket to the NHL, or even a solid AHL career.
NHL veterans like Neil or Torres have already proven their toughness ans what they're willing to do.
- MJL

I dunno, in the wide majority of cases, if a player takes "liberties", he's the guy who has to answer for it personally... not his enforcer pal.

Take the Caps game for example... B Schenn's leaping hit on Hillen was paid for by Mitchell pasting Schenn into the boards later in the game... and Mitchell answered the bell by dropping the gloves w/ Brayden. There was no need for an enforcer there. The regular players on the ice could handle the situation and justice was meted out.

If the Caps tough guy grabs Schenn after the initial hit and pummels him instead, he's getting 2, 5 and 10 and the Caps are shorthanded.

I dunno, in the wide majority of cases, if a player takes "liberties", he's the guy who has to answer for it personally... not his enforcer pal.

Take the Caps game for example... B Schenn's leaping hit on Hillen was paid for by Mitchell pasting Schenn into the boards later in the game... and Mitchell answered the bell by dropping the gloves w/ Brayden. There was little need for an enforcer there, the regular players on the ice could handle the situation and justice was meted out.
- Tomahawk

If Schenn didn't jump 84 inches into the air, there wouldn't be a problem.

Happy New Year!

If Schenn didn't jump 84 inches into the air, there wouldn't be a problem.
- jmatchett383

I dunno, in the wide majority of cases, if a player takes "liberties", he's the guy who has to answer for it personally... not his enforcer pal.

Take the Caps game for example... B Schenn's leaping hit on Hillen was paid for by Mitchell pasting Schenn into the boards later in the game... and Mitchell answered the bell by dropping the gloves w/ Brayden. There was no need for an enforcer there. The regular players on the ice could handle the situation and justice was meted out.

If the Caps tough guy grabs Schenn after the initial hit and pummels him instead, he's getting 2, 5 and 10 and the Caps are shorthanded.
- Tomahawk

How many times out of ten does someone other than the enforcer end up fighting someone as a retaliatory measure? I remember a few times but I think that would be something interesting to keep track of.

How many times out of ten does someone other than the enforcer end up fighting someone as a retaliatory measure? I remember a few times but I think that would be something interesting to keep track of.
- NickTheKid87

Then we get back to defining enforcer. Is Wayne Simmonds an enforcer? Is Mike Richards? Tom Wilson? Todd Bertuzzi (post-Moore)? Just a few of the retalitory ones that come clearly to mind.

Dead Alive > Lord of the Rings

Discuss.

How many times out of ten does someone other than the enforcer end up fighting someone as a retaliatory measure? I remember a few times but I think that would be something interesting to keep track of.
- NickTheKid87

Yeah, it's mostly the obligatory staged stuff between heavies. The 'Code' pretty much prevents them from going after anybody else -- even rats.


Completely unrelated...

Name to watch: Bogdan Yakimov... 6'5 232, skilled C, probably going to make the Oilers out of camp.

Yeah, it's mostly the obligatory staged stuff between heavies. The 'Code' pretty much prevents them from going after anybody else -- even rats.


Completely unrelated...

Name to watch: Bogdan Yakimov... 6'5 232, skilled C, probably going to make the Oilers out of camp.
- Tomahawk

Sounds too close to Yakupov. Doesn't backcheck.

The overall problem is that a goon (enforcer, whatever) is not really a deterrent nowadays. Back when the Flyers had McCarthy or Brashear, the game was A BIT different where they could act as a deterrent. Not so much now.

As people have said, you need team toughness, not individual toughness. Even if the Sabres had Jon Scott, Lucic is still going to hit Miller. Okay, 5 minutes later Jon Scott will punch him a few times, and get Boston a PP for instigation and Scott will get 17 PIM. Now, if 5 guys are gonna pile onto you because they all have each others' back, no matter which 5 guys it is, that's a different matter.
- jmatchett383

I don't think it's there for a deterrant. I think Stortini is still around for two reasons. One he has to clear waivers to be sent down, and that can't happen until tomorrow. And two, to stand up and take on the other teams knucklehead if he's out there running around, in the pre season.
Otherwise, I have stated many times in repeated and round and round discussion on whether an enforcer is needed or not needed, that having an enforcer is not a deterrant. And isn't going to stop anyone from running anyone or cheap shotting anyone.

Then we get back to defining enforcer. Is Wayne Simmonds an enforcer? Is Mike Richards? Tom Wilson? Todd Bertuzzi (post-Moore)? Just a few of the retalitory ones that come clearly to mind.
- jmatchett383

Rosehill, Orr, Scott, Boulton, etc are who I'm referring too.

If Schenn didn't jump 84 inches into the air, there wouldn't be a problem.
- jmatchett383