Yeah, definitely most of these kids were dealt at the first sign of trouble, or at least when it was time to make a splash.

I don't think it's much of a stretch to say that other teams have benefited more from Flyers drafting excellence than the Flyers themselves over the past 2 decades.
- Tomahawk

That's a fair statement when you factor in non first rounders the Flyers deal away for returns that failed to pan out.

Yeah, definitely most of these kids were dealt at the first sign of trouble, or at least when it was time to make a splash.

I don't think it's much of a stretch to say that other teams have benefited more from Flyers drafting excellence than the Flyers themselves over the past 2 decades.
- Tomahawk

Sometimes guys need a change of scenery too though. You can't just assume guys will go on to have the same career here as they did somewhere else.

Some of those trades were before the salary cap era when it was easier to replace guys in FA.

I'm not excusing them but they've really only had two trades completely blowup in their faces. JVR and Sharp. I'm still not convinced Sharp would have been successful here though. He needed a change of scenery.

Flyers also got acquired guys who fell out of favor then became good. Guys like Coburn, Carle and Mason. It goes both ways.

Sometimes guys need a change of scenery too though. You can't just assume guys will go on to have the same career here as they did somewhere else.

Some of those trades were before the salary cap era when it was easier to replace guys in FA.

I'm not excusing them but they've really only had two trades completely blowup in their faces. JVR and Sharp. I'm still not convinced Sharp would have been successful here though. He needed a change of scenery.

Flyers also got acquired guys who fell out of favor then became good. Guys like Coburn, Carle and Mason. It goes both ways.
- PhillySportsGuy

It wasn't really meant as a critique, just a statement of facts.

The Flyers traded those guys away and still managed to be a contending or competitive team for much of the last couple decades.

I'm simply pointing out that Hextall seems to be more a proponent of being patient with first rounders and other prospects than his predecessors.

Sometimes guys need a change of scenery too though. You can't just assume guys will go on to have the same career here as they did somewhere else.

Some of those trades were before the salary cap era when it was easier to replace guys in FA.

I'm not excusing them but they've really only had two trades completely blowup in their faces. JVR and Sharp. I'm still not convinced Sharp would have been successful here though. He needed a change of scenery.

Flyers also got acquired guys who fell out of favor then became good. Guys like Coburn, Carle and Mason. It goes both ways.
- PhillySportsGuy

It's tough because nobody ever expected Sharp to become what he is. He was never projected to be this successful. Just bad luck for us.

It's tough because nobody ever expected Sharp to become what he is. He was never projected to be this successful. Just bad luck for us.
- GOA88

It is bad luck to some extent, because Ellison was rated by most as a similar prospect to Sharp at the time of the trade.

That said, the trade was not as much Sharp not progressing as it was Ken Hitchcock(in other words the organization) having issues with him for not developing quickly enough or not being good enough defensively.

Why do you think this? The whole Ryan/Clarke thing is so overblown its almost laughable.

There is no way they sign Ryan to what he will be asking for when he gets to FA. It will completely blow up their cap.
- MBFlyerfan

To be honest, I think what people think he'll be asking for is overblown. We don't know what Ryan will be asking for. What I do think we know is he doesn't want to stick with Ottawa right nowbbecause they do not look very good and who could blame him?

I also think comparing Ryan to Simmonds, Read or Voracek is a waste of time. Why compare all these players, when you can dream of having each player on this team. All of which (including Ryan has something to offer the Philadelphia Flyers).

The talk of Ryan coming to Philly has gone on for years now. Talk has heated up since he openly spoke of wanting to be here. Now we're all Flyers fans. Would you wanna play for the Flyers if you could? I think the more it's been talked about the past number of years about getting Ryan, some have gone against it because they might want to be the first to say I told you so.

There are some things Read, Simmonds and Voracek do much better then Ryan. Read is way more responsible defensively. Simmonds is grittier. Voracek MIGHT challenge Ryan offensively because of his ability to make plays, good hands speed but Bobby Ryan is easily the better goal scorer then the three.

If he wants too much and we cannot sign him, no big deal.

If Ryan makes it to UFA, I think he will be a flyer. Financially it will tough, but I think the call will be coming down from up top in Snider and Clarke to make it happen.
- psuhockey

I like to joke about Ryan coming back (clearly, he misses going to playdrome and eating at KOP on Rt 70), but I don't think anybody knows if Bobby Ryan really wants to come back here. The history here for him isn't all pleasant.

Why do you think this? The whole Ryan/Clarke thing is so overblown its almost laughable.

There is no way they sign Ryan to what he will be asking for when he gets to FA. It will completely blow up their cap.
- MBFlyerfan

The effect on the cap wouldn't be that bad. The Flyers are currently $2.6 mil under this years cap for next year with 10 forwards, 5 defensemen, and a goalie already signed. The only players coming up are the bottom rung players. Prongers LTIR exception adds $4.9 mil plus the cap is projected to go up. I think Ryan will get around $7. So depending how much the cap goes up, he wouldn't require anybody to be moved to sign him.

Things could get tricky the next year with Voracek, Coburn, Couturier and B. Schenn coming up but the Flyers will probably be adding many cheap ELC contracts to the roster by then. Plus Umberger and Lecavalier will at a point in their contracts where regular buyouts are feasible with 1 and 2 years left, which IMO outside of a catastrophic injury are the only way these guys come off the books.

Sometimes guys need a change of scenery too though. You can't just assume guys will go on to have the same career here as they did somewhere else.
- PhillySportsGuy

I think it's probably more about going to a place where they have an opportunity to shine, versus just a plain change of scenery.

Hard for the Williams' and Bobs of the world to make leaps forward in development when a team's hell-bent on bringing in vets like Amonte and Bryzgalov to place in front of them on the depth chart.

It is bad luck to some extent, because Ellison was rated by most as a similar prospect to Sharp at the time of the trade.

That said, the trade was not as much Sharp not progressing as it was Ken Hitchcock(in other words the organization) having issues with him for not developing quickly enough or not being good enough defensively.
- Jsaquella

That's funny cause he became quite astute defensively. Why even trade him if you were only getting something similar in return (what they thought at the time) Really... why bother?!

Yeah, lot of them turned out really good for other teams after the Flyers lost patience or decided they needed to bolster the roster for a playoff run that didn't end with a Stanley Cup.

Here they are:

Zubrus: Went on to have a solid, if unspectacular NHL career after being traded for Recchi.

Woywitka: Never played for Flyers, journeyman NHL career after being traded for Mike Comrie

Williams: Won Stanley Cups with Carolina and LA after being traded for Danny Markov...who ended up being a three month rental

Pitkanen; Solid, if unspectacular career. Did eventually become a legit first pair NHL defenseman who ate a ton of minutes. Traded for Jason Smith and Joffrey Lupul, who spent a combined 3 seasons as Flyers. Lupul part of trade for Pronger, who played 145 games for the Flyers.

Carter and Richards: Outstanding careers with the Flyers, traded for youngsters that stayed in Philly and made an impact as Flyers.

Downie: Had a 20 goal season for Tampa after being traded for Matt Carle. Flyers managed to lose Carle, in part because of their haste to re-sign Grossmann and the ridiculous deal Calgary gave to Dennis Wideman

JvR: Flyers lost patience with him, traded him for Luke Schenn, watched JvR become 30 goal scoring, first line winger. Schenn still struggling badly with consistency.

Sbisa: Traded in Pronger deal, mired by injuries and inconsistency. Probably not helped in his development by sticking with Flyers out of camp and being shuffled around the line up, playing third pair, being benched and even shifted to LW because the Flyers had cap issues.

On the whole, they had one guy who stuck and had a lengthy career with the Flyers (Gagne), two others that had a ton of success and were traded in controversial moves(Richards & Carter) and a host of others that did good things in other organizations after the Flyers lost patience or got frustrated with them.

I'd rather see the Flyers let these kids have their growing pains in the relative obscurity of Allentown, than have them in the glare of the Philly spotlight.
- Jsaquella

I don't think they gave up on Justin Williams as much as they felt that they were very deep at forward, but needed to get another top 4 dman. I also think, and this is only a guess, that when they made the deal it was with the intention of Markov being around for more than 3 months.

Outside of last night, Vinny has looked good on the PP and mediocre at ES. I wouldn't say that's a bounce back.
- Jsaquella

Well he's played two presence games, the most recent he's looked very good. I'd say I'm gonna stick with my original statement.

That's funny cause he became quite astute defensively. Why even trade him if you were only getting something similar in return (what they thought at the time) Really... why bother?!
- GOA88

FWIW, Hitchcock had really soured on Sharp and and that time, Hitch a lot of influence on personnel decisions. Hitch, to his credit, admitted years later that he messed up on Sharp and that he shouldn't of written him off so quickly. In his defense though, he was under enormous pressure to win now and he just didn't see Sharp as a guy who was going to help him do that.

To be honest, I think what people think what he'll be asking for is overblown. We don't know what Ryan will be asking for. What I do think we know is he'd doesn't want to stick with Ottawa right nowbbecause they do not look very good and who could blame him?

I also think comparing Ryan to Simmonds, Read or Voracek is a waste of time. Why compare all these players, when you can dream of having each player on this team. All of which (including Ryan has something to offer the Philadelphia Flyers).

The talk of Ryan coming to Philly has gone on for years now. Talk has heated up since he openly spoke of wanting to be here. Now we're all Flyers fans. Would you wanna play for the Flyers if you could? I think the more it's been talked about the past number of years about getting Ryan, some have gone against it because they might want to be the first to say I told you so.

There are some things Read, Simmonds and Voracek do much better then Ryan. Read is way more responsible defensively. Simmonds is grittier. Voracek MIGHT challenge Ryan offensively because of his ability to make plays, good hands speed but Bobby Ryan is easily the better goal scorer then the three.

If he wants too much and we cannot sign him, no big deal.
- SuperSchennBros

No, he isn't. Ryan scored 30+ goals for several years straight, while playing most of the time with Ryan Getzlaff and Corey Perry.

Matt Read has had two twenty goal seasons(only season he didn't score 20 was the lockout) while playing a mostly defense first role. He hasn't had anywhere near the useage or linemates that Ryan has had over his career.

Wayne Simmonds has also not had anywhere near the quality of linemates that Ryan had in Anaheim. Simmonds had 29 goals last year while spending most of his 5 on 5 time with a declining or hurt(and largely ineffective) Vinny Lecavalier and a young guy struggling with consistency(Schenn).

I feel very confident if you put Read and Simmonds in the same situations and with the same linemates, they'd come close to matching his goal totals. You can't just say Ryan scored more goals, you have to look at the way the three were used and who they played with.

Well he's played two presence games, the most recent he's looked very good. I'd say I'm gonna stick with my original statement.
- SuperSchennBros

He certainly had his best all around game of the preseason last night, but it's way too early to make any real judgments yet.

No, he isn't. Ryan scored 30+ goals for several years straight, while playing most of the time with Ryan Getzlaff and Corey Perry.

Matt Read has had two twenty goal seasons(only season he didn't score 20 was the lockout) while playing a mostly defense first role. He hasn't had anywhere near the useage or linemates that Ryan has had over his career.

Wayne Simmonds has also not had anywhere near the quality of linemates that Ryan had in Anaheim. Simmonds had 29 goals last year while spending most of his 5 on 5 time with a declining or hurt(and largely ineffective) Vinny Lecavalier and a young guy struggling with consistency(Schenn).

I feel very confident if you put Read and Simmonds in the same situations and with the same linemates, they'd come close to matching his goal totals.
- Jsaquella

Heck, you put Simmonds on a line with Getzlaf and Perry and give him time on the top pp unit and he scores 35, easy.

The effect on the cap wouldn't be that bad. The Flyers are currently $2.6 mil under this years cap for next year with 10 forwards, 5 defensemen, and a goalie already signed. The only players coming up are the bottom rung players. Prongers LTIR exception adds $4.9 mil plus the cap is projected to go up. I think Ryan will get around $7. So depending how much the cap goes up, he wouldn't require anybody to be moved to sign him.

Things could get tricky the next year with Voracek, Coburn, Couturier and B. Schenn coming up but the Flyers will probably be adding many cheap ELC contracts to the roster by then. Plus Umberger and Lecavalier will at a point in their contracts where regular buyouts are feasible with 1 and 2 years left, which IMO outside of a catastrophic injury are the only way these guys come off the books.
- psuhockey

That is just it. There is no way Bobby Ryan is worth 7 million dollars. Especially for the 6 or 7 years it will take to sign him. Add to that he is not a need the Flyers have, that money could better be spent somewhere else.

I don't want him. They don't need him.

That's funny cause he became quite astute defensively. Why even trade him if you were only getting something similar in return (what they thought at the time) Really... why bother?!
- GOA88

It is. And that's my point.

People now are clamoring(not necessarily you) for Bobby Ryan. Well, they had a guy who is younger and out producing Ryan and traded him away for Luke Schenn.

Had they been more patient with JvR, there'd be no calling for Ryan to be signed as a free agent

What's crazy about the top four Flyers defensive prospects is that they can all skate pretty darn well.

There was a play last night where Morin almost gave himself a breakaway opportunity with his speed but his lack of puck savvy caused him to fumble the puck and the devils D-men caught up to him.

As many have already said, I realize that the Devils looked horrible last night, but man that dude can really move for a big guy.

No, he isn't. Ryan scored 30+ goals for several years straight, while playing most of the time with Ryan Getzlaff and Corey Perry.

Matt Read has had two twenty goal seasons(only season he didn't score 20 was the lockout) while playing a mostly defense first role. He hasn't had anywhere near the useage or linemates that Ryan has had over his career.

Wayne Simmonds has also not had anywhere near the quality of linemates that Ryan had in Anaheim. Simmonds had 29 goals last year while spending most of his 5 on 5 time with a declining or hurt(and largely ineffective) Vinny Lecavalier and a young guy struggling with consistency(Schenn).

I feel very confident if you put Read and Simmonds in the same situations and with the same linemates, they'd come close to matching his goal totals.
- Jsaquella

Right now Bobby is unquestionably the better goal scorer. To me this is a list of excuses that downplays one player and attempting to play up two others. Dustin Penner wasn't good enough to play with Getzlaf and Perry last season. Ryan had a decent season next to Clarke MacArthur and Kyle Torres last season. Ryan is currently having a better camp then both Read and Simmonds right now.

Heck, you put Simmonds on a line with Getzlaf and Perry and give him time on the top pp unit and he scores 35, easy.
- BiggE

I agree. That's why I can't say Bobby Ryan is easily a better goal scorer than the other two. Last year, playing top line minutes for Ottawa, with a talented young center in Turris, Ryan had one more goal than Read.

Man CBJ is in a bad way. RJ shows no signs of budging and Horton has no timetable for a return from a degenerative disc disorder. They might really end up kicking themselves for taking Hartnell's longer deal.

Right now Bobby is unquestionably the better goal scorer. To me this is a list of excuses that downplays on player and attempting to play up two others. Dustin Penner wasn't good enough to play with Getzlaf and Perry last season. Ryan had a decent season next to Clarke MacArthur and Kyle Torres last season. Ryan is currently having a better camp then both Read and Simmonds right now.
- SuperSchennBros

Its not even close to being UNQUESTIONABLY anything. They aren't excuses, they are facts.

Right now Bobby is unquestionably the better goal scorer. To me this is a list of excuses that downplays on player and attempting to play up two others. Dustin Penner wasn't good enough to play with Getzlaf and Perry last season. Ryan had a decent season next to Clarke MacArthur and Kyle Torres last season. Ryan is currently having a better camp then both Read and Simmonds right now.
- SuperSchennBros

It's not a list of excuses. Ryan played with Getzlaff and Perry and scored 30 + goals. He came over to Ottawa and played on a top line with Turris and MacArthur and scored 1 more goal than Read did in a shutdown line role and fewer than Simmonds did in a second line role.

You can't just say one guy scored more goals and claim he's the better scorer. You have to look at context and the role he played. Read scoring 22 goals in his role is a lot more impressive than Ryan scoring 23 in his role.

I agree. That's why I can't say Bobby Ryan is easily a better goal scorer than the other two. Last year, playing top line minutes for Ottawa, with a talented young center in Turris, Ryan had one more goal than Read.
- Jsaquella

To be fair Ryan played through much of last season with a nagging injury. But I see your point.