Big difference between a forward playing in a defensive role and a defenseman. Also, Couturier has been frank that he tends to focus first and foremost on defense because that is what he was asked to do and that is what he is good at. Maybe another year in juniors centering a top line would have meant a different path for him.
- TheGreat28

Maybe, maybe not. This is all just smoke screens. Plenty of Flyers rookies were thrust into the lineup and succeeded. Take Simon Gagne for example.

Just because a rookie plays with the big club in his first year as a pro doesn't automatically indicate it will hurt their development. As a recent Flyers example, Couturier played well his rookie season and first as a pro and it sure didn't seem to stunt his growth as a player.
- aantny88

No it doesn't. But there are a lot more examples of young players that never managed to find sustained consistency after making the NHL at an early age after an impressive camp. Hell there's three with Flyers connections off the top if my head: Luke Schenn, MDZ & Luca Sbisa.

Doesn't mean that Morin or Gostisbehere would be hurt by early promotion, but when both have obvious holes in their games right now, extra developmental time is hardly a bad idea. Why risk it for short term betterment of a middle if the road team? Even if Morin & Ghost play well, the Flyers still aren't likely to win a Stanley Cup this year. I'd rather avoid the risk. If Ghost is tearing up the AHL, like Giroux did in 2009, he can be added then. If Morin goes to the Q and plays great, he can win a job next season.

For years Flyers fans have moaned about the team being patient, and now when they do, people tell them to rush kids

They shot themselves in the foot with some of the D signings/extensions. I'm sorry but AMac and Grossmann are not worth their cap hits...
- aantny88

Grossmann's cap hit is smack dab in line with what the veteran shot-blocking defensemen who play his role and minutes make around the NHL. You still need someone in his role, and (apart from a hideous month of January last year) he usually does it pretty well.

Both AMac and Grossmann received UFA-type contracts to sign extensions after coming over in trade late in the final seasons of their respective contracts. That's just the nature of the beast in the NHL today.

Hopefully, in the near future, the Flyers will have some productive Dmen in their entry-level or at least bridge contract years -- AKA much lower cap hits.

No it doesn't. But there are a lot more examples of young players that never managed to find sustained consistency after making the NHL at an early age after an impressive camp. Hell there's three with Flyers connections off the top if my head: Luke Schenn, MDZ & Luca Sbisa.

Doesn't mean that Morin or Gostisbehere would be hurt by early promotion, but when both have obvious holes in their games right now, extra developmental time is hardly a bad idea. Why risk it for short term betterment of a middle if the road team? Even if Morin & Ghost play well, the Flyers still aren't likely to win a Stanley Cup this year. I'd rather avoid the risk. If Ghost is tearing up the AHL, like Giroux did in 2009, he can be added then. If Morin goes to the Q and plays great, he can win a job next season.

For years Flyers fans have moaned about the team being patient, and now when they do, people tell them to rush kids
- Jsaquella

Patience does not exist in this city.

Grossmann's cap hit is smack dab in line with what the veteran shot-blocking defensemen who play his role and minutes make around the NHL. You still need someone in his role, and (apart from a hideous month of January last year) he usually does it pretty well.

Both AMac and Grossmann received UFA-type contracts to sign extensions after coming over in trade late in the final seasons of their respective contracts. That's just the nature of the beast in the NHL today.

Hopefully, in the near future, the Flyers will have some productive Dmen in their entry-level or at least bridge contract years -- AKA much lower cap hits.
- bmeltzer

What troubles me Bill is when I look at the defense on paper I like what I see. Then the game starts and Im discombobulated. They all have their strengths but it just does not seem to work for us...

No it doesn't. But there are a lot more examples of young players that never managed to find sustained consistency after making the NHL at an early age after an impressive camp. Hell there's three with Flyers connections off the top if my head: Luke Schenn, MDZ & Luca Sbisa.

Doesn't mean that Morin or Gostisbehere would be hurt by early promotion, but when both have obvious holes in their games right now, extra developmental time is hardly a bad idea. Why risk it for short term betterment of a middle if the road team? Even if Morin & Ghost play well, the Flyers still aren't likely to win a Stanley Cup this year. I'd rather avoid the risk. If Ghost is tearing up the AHL, like Giroux did in 2009, he can be added then. If Morin goes to the Q and plays great, he can win a job next season.

For years Flyers fans have moaned about the team being patient, and now when they do, people tell them to rush kids
- Jsaquella

I think every player is different. If the player is bound to be great, starting the clock early won't hurt them long-term (Doughty and Pronger come to mind). Guys like Schenn and Del Zotto just are who they are. If Luke was drafted in the second round by the Coyotes, his expectations would have been a lot different then drafted by the Leafs in the top 5.

I'm not sure how much Morin can grow as a d-man in the Q by being so ridiculously physically dominant against his competition. For me, that scenario could lead to falling into bad habits more so then playing against better competition. I don't know what is the right answer on him.

Obviously, none among Coburn, MacDonald or Streit should have been in any danger job-wise regardless of how they played in the preseason. With Grossmann, the main question was how he'd recovered from the ankle tendon repair surgery and he was otherwise set to rejoin the lineup. Luke Schenn's job wasn't in jeopardy but his ice time and pairing role could fluctuate.

That leaves Del Zotto and Schultz. Both have semi-secure roster spots based partially on their salaries not being able to be fully buried in the NHL. However, Del Zotto needed to solidify a top six spot and Schultz needed at minimum to show he could be a reliable seven when there are injuries, slumps, etc. Neither have accomplished that goal.

Gostisbehere and Morin absolutely outplayed those two guys (as well as several whose jobs were not at stake).
- bmeltzer

Providing they would clear waivers, the Flyers could send down either Schultz or Del Zotto to the Phantoms, and keep Morin or Gostisbehere, for pretty much the same cap money. Give or take 50-100K.

For years Flyers fans have moaned about the team being patient, and now when they do, people tell them to rush kids
- Jsaquella

No it doesn't. But there are a lot more examples of young players that never managed to find sustained consistency after making the NHL at an early age after an impressive camp. Hell there's three with Flyers connections off the top if my head: Luke Schenn, MDZ & Luca Sbisa.

Doesn't mean that Morin or Gostisbehere would be hurt by early promotion, but when both have obvious holes in their games right now, extra developmental time is hardly a bad idea. Why risk it for short term betterment of a middle if the road team? Even if Morin & Ghost play well, the Flyers still aren't likely to win a Stanley Cup this year. I'd rather avoid the risk. If Ghost is tearing up the AHL, like Giroux did in 2009, he can be added then. If Morin goes to the Q and plays great, he can win a job next season.

For years Flyers fans have moaned about the team being patient, and now when they do, people tell them to rush kids
- Jsaquella

Sbisa is a case study in how NOT to develop a defenseman. The Flyers rushed him right into the NHL at 18 because he was physically mature and had a decent camp. They burned through the first year of his ELC as he held his own early. Inevitably, he hit the wall after a while and began to struggle. After about half a season, the Flyers returned him to his junior team. By that point, it was a jolting demotion (and a wasted contract year).

The Flyers traded Sbisa that offseason in the Pronger trade, while Sbisa was still a highly regarded prospect. But I am of the opinion that Sbisa's development was badly hurt by his handing that first year. He went back to junior for another year once in the Anaheim organization -- another jolting demotion after cracking the NHL right away -- and has never become more than a number five defenseman in the NHL.

Patience does not exist in this city.
- GOA88

Well, it's gonna have to be found. I have no desire to have Gostisbehere turn into MDZ because he outplayed a middle if the road vet during preseason. I have no desire to see Morin battle consistency year after year because he picked up bad habits because he was brought to the NHL too soon.

Boils down to this, for me: there's no harm in being patient, but definite risks in rushing the kids. The benefit in rushing them is very minor, and has a short term lifespan.

You got a point there. It's not like the Flyers are winning the cup this year anyways. No matter what they do.
- GOA88

i really wonder how much say hextall had in that macdonald extension.

What troubles me Bill is when I look at the defense on paper I like what I see. Then the game starts and Im discombobulated. They all have their strengths but it just does not seem to work for us...
- GOA88

Aside from streit I can't trust any of them. Coburn has looked brutal with added responsibility, but we know how hot/cold he runs

Well, it's gonna have to be found. I have no desire to have Gostisbehere turn into MDZ because he outplayed a middle if the road vet during preseason. I have no desire to see Morin battle consistency year after year because he picked up bad habits because he was brought to the NHL too soon.

Boils down to this, for me: there's no harm in being patient, but definite risks in rushing the kids. The benefit in rushing them is very minor, and has a short term lifespan.
- Jsaquella

This is plausible for sure. We'll see what Hextall decides. I think they are taking a long look and having some deep internal discussions on what to do with Morin right now. They like what they see.

Obviously, none among Coburn, MacDonald or Streit should have been in any danger job-wise regardless of how they played in the preseason. With Grossmann, the main question was how he'd recovered from the ankle tendon repair surgery and he was otherwise set to rejoin the lineup. Luke Schenn's job wasn't in jeopardy but his ice time and pairing role could fluctuate.

That leaves Del Zotto and Schultz. Both have semi-secure roster spots based partially on their salaries not being able to be fully buried in the NHL. However, Del Zotto needed to solidify a top six spot and Schultz needed at minimum to show he could be a reliable seven when there are injuries, slumps, etc. Neither have accomplished that goal.

Gostisbehere and Morin absolutely outplayed those two guys (as well as several whose jobs were not at stake).
- bmeltzer

See, the last sentence is this assessment -- while all is accurate, in my views -- is the most crucial.

They didn't just outplay the bubble players. They were comparable to guys we have who are expected to perform.

That is where this becomes trickier with me -- Ghost and Morin both need more experience, and Ghost will benefit from some AHL time, simply as he adjusts to playing against grown men on a professional schedule.

However, Morin doesn't have that luxury, as he has to go back to junior.

That is, if he goes back.

If it were me, and I had two guys who outplayed guys who weren't on the bubble, then maybe I need to find a way to get them on the roster sooner than later and live with their growing pains.

It doesn't have to be immediate -- Ghost can play for Terry Murray for a stretch. That won't kill him.

But if Morin played better than numerous guys, not just bubble guys, then he'd be in my opening night lineup on the 8th. And I would be careful to evaluate it from there, but that is how I would do it. Because he would have won the job by clearly outplaying veterans, which is what you said he had to do to get on the roster.

I still worry about the impact that will have. Real easy for young guys to learn bad habits, especially on teams that aren't good and don't have a strong veteran presence.

If they had a guy like Timonen, I'd be more open to keeping one of them , because he'd provide mentorship and solid play. Not sure they have that on this roster, with apologies to Streit.
- Jsaquella

That's a fair point. Do you think it sends an unfair message to them when they clearly outperformed other players?

Aside from streit I can't trust any of them. Coburn has looked brutal with added responsibility, but we know how hot/cold he runs
- Just5

It's the pre season. If anyone looks brutal in the regular season, then be concerned. I have questions about Del Zotto. But other then that, if they get the support, the Flyers have a solid defense. Not a Stanley Cup defense. But a defense good enough to be a playoff team.

I think every player is different. If the player is bound to be great, starting the clock early won't hurt them long-term (Doughty and Pronger come to mind). Guys like Schenn and Del Zotto just are who they are. If Luke was drafted in the second round by the Coyotes, his expectations would have been a lot different then drafted by the Leafs in the top 5.

I'm not sure how much Morin can grow as a d-man in the Q by being so ridiculously physically dominant against his competition. For me, that scenario could lead to falling into bad habits more so then playing against better competition. I don't know what is the right answer on him.
- ravishingone

Agreed, every player is who he is. Morin isn't going to be the next Pronger. He's more likely to be a nastier version of Coburn than the Next Pronger. He still has very visible weaknesses in his game that will get exploited if he's playing in the NHL this season.

If he's at the NHL level, his progression may well take a back seat to winning games. Berube may feel the heat from above, and that's where a guy can develop the bad habits, because the coach is viewing the short term rather than the long.

Morin still has things that he can work on at the junior level. He can physically dominate there and that's a concern, but when he's a fully grown man, he'll physically dominate at the NHL level, too.

Doughty and Pronger were guys who were seen as out and out studs their draft year. They were taken second overall behind guys who were thought of as, if not generational talents, than sure to be superstars. That's not the case with Morin or Gostisbehere. The Flyers knew in drafting them, they'd need to develop.

Simply being better than middle of the road NHLers can't be the reason that the Flyers veer off that path

i really wonder how much say hextall had in that macdonald extension.
- rinaldo

Probably nothing and would like to replace him.....

Maybe, maybe not. This is all just smoke screens. Plenty of Flyers rookies were thrust into the lineup and succeeded. Take Simon Gagne for example.
- GOA88

Another forward

Why not waive Rosehill and keep two of Akeson, Jones and Bellemare?

Schenn-Giroux-Voracek
Simmonds-Couturier-Read
Umberger-Lecavalier-Akeson
Raffl-Bellemare-Rinaldo
Jones

Coburn-MacDonald
Streit-Grossmann
Schenn-Morin
MDZ-Schultz

Mason
Emery

Assuming Morin gets the trial, once he's returned to Rimouski, call back up Rosehill or Manning.

I'm not sure how much Morin can grow as a d-man in the Q by being so ridiculously physically dominant against his competition. For me, that scenario could lead to falling into bad habits more so then playing against better competition. I don't know what is the right answer on him.
- ravishingone

Despite his size, he hasn't been dominant at the junior level. Its not like he's a lock for Team Canada and the Emile Bouchard or something. He's still got plenty of things to learn down there, and plenty of goals to work toward.

Sbisa is a case study in how NOT to develop a defenseman. The Flyers rushed him right into the NHL at 18 because he was physically mature and had a decent camp. They burned through the first year of his ELC as he held his own early. Inevitably, he hit the wall after a while and began to struggle. After about half a season, the Flyers returned him to his junior team. By that point, it was a jolting demotion (and a wasted contract year).

The Flyers traded Sbisa that offseason in the Pronger trade, while Sbisa was still a highly regarded prospect. But I am of the opinion that Sbisa's development was badly hurt by his handing that first year. He went back to junior for another year once in the Anaheim organization -- another jolting demotion after cracking the NHL right away -- and has never become more than a number five defenseman in the NHL.
- bmeltzer

Exactly what I mean. Morin's progress in one season has been awesome. But playing well in pre-season is one thing. Being able to do it when everyone is at full speed is different. The thing is, both Morin and Ghost still have apparent things they need to work on. The Flyers can't simply say, well they're better than Del Zotto and plug 'em in!

In just weighing the risks and benefits, I'd be OK with starting Morin for a 9 game stint and if he does well, then maybe re-think it.

That's a fair point. Do you think it sends an unfair message to them when they clearly outperformed other players?
- PLindbergh31

Not really. You praise the way they played, tell them that they're doing great and that you expect them to continue to push for a NHL job and that just because they're starting the season in the AHL doesn't mean they won't finish it in the NHL.

Sbisa is a case study in how NOT to develop a defenseman. The Flyers rushed him right into the NHL at 18 because he was physically mature and had a decent camp. They burned through the first year of his ELC as he held his own early. Inevitably, he hit the wall after a while and began to struggle. After about half a season, the Flyers returned him to his junior team. By that point, it was a jolting demotion (and a wasted contract year).

The Flyers traded Sbisa that offseason in the Pronger trade, while Sbisa was still a highly regarded prospect. But I am of the opinion that Sbisa's development was badly hurt by his handing that first year. He went back to junior for another year once in the Anaheim organization -- another jolting demotion after cracking the NHL right away -- and has never become more than a number five defenseman in the NHL.
- bmeltzer

I completely agree. A lot of people really seem to discount the role of confidence in a player's development. It's easy to say...well these guys are all highly paid professionals, they have a job to do so they should just suck it up and do it.

But confidence to me is a key determinant. Early success can be the difference between a career that takes off and a career that seems to stagnate. I often wonder if scoring some goals early in his career would have altered the trajectory for a guy like Nodl.

Sure, mental makeup is important too. Some guys can overcome a huge blow to their confidence; other's can't.

Why not waive Rosehill and keep two of Akeson, Jones and Bellemare?
- NickTheKid87

That would make way too much sense.