i would agree, there's no wrong horse. i'm generally partial to first albums, simply because their first - the original sound.
- hammarby31

I'm a Power Slave and Seventh Son fan, personally.

Stortini was.
- jmatchett383

Between Rosehill, Stortini, and Derek Mathers, those Phantoms games are going to be about 4 hours long.

i would agree, there's no wrong horse. i'm generally partial to first albums, simply because their first - the original sound.
- hammarby31

In general, I prefer first albums. When it comes to Iron Maiden, old Maiden and Bruce Maiden are very different bands.

Number of the Beast might be the best song ever, imo.

So you'd call Slava Voynov, TJ Brodie, Torrey Krug, and Andrej Benoit top-pair defenders?
- jmatchett383

It's like number one defenseman. It's a moving target among some people. To some there 40 number one defensemen in the NHL to others there's 5. It's too vague.

Yeah, agreed. I was looking at it for a totally different reason. I really believe that the whole "ruined him in the NHL" thing is a joke. If you have the talent to play in the NHL it typically comes fairly quickly to the forefront.

You kinda have to discount guys from overseas and college kids in the mix.

I would really like to have time to go through more but it was worth discussing I thought. I have no preconceived notion as to what Morin will become. Ghostisbehere I expect big things from and he's past the second yr thing. Being in College changes the time line I've seen in my small sample certainly. Those guys tend to stay two to three seasons at least.
- mayorofangrytown

It varies from player to player but there's a range probably between 18-22 where if they're not at least NHL caliber players than the chances of them becoming anything special drops significantly. Morin might be in the NHL on a past Flyers team but there's no harm in keeping him down. He might even be ready for the NHL. Who knows?

It's like number one defenseman. It's a moving target among some people. To some there 40 number one defensemen in the NHL to others there's 5. It's too vague.
- mayorofangrytown

That's my issue. Instead of saying "top pair shutdown," I'd like people just to be more explicit. It could mean he'll be the next Shea Weber/Chris Pronger, or it could mean the next Derian Hatcher, or the next Barrett Jackman, the next Chris Therien, etc.

replay of last night's game is on... man did carlson ever leave his feet on that hit on grossmann that knocked out the glass

2 decent complementary definitions. Thank you gentlemen

It varies from player to player but there's a range probably between 18-22 where if they're not at least NHL caliber players than the chances of them becoming anything special drops significantly. Morin might be in the NHL on a past Flyers team but there's no harm in keeping him down. He might even be ready for the NHL. Who knows?
- NickTheKid87

I'd bet he makes more than half of the NHL clubs today. Ghostisbehere too. The Flyers are stuck. Not bad enough to risk the rough spots and not good enough to protect the rookies.

It varies from player to player but there's a range probably between 18-22 where if they're not at least NHL caliber players than the chances of them becoming anything special drops significantly. Morin might be in the NHL on a past Flyers team but there's no harm in keeping him down. He might even be ready for the NHL. Who knows?
- NickTheKid87

If the current Flyers went into the season with the 12/13 defense (Gervais and Foster in the opening night top-6), he'd probably be on the team opening night.

That's my issue. Instead of saying "top pair shutdown," I'd like people just to be more explicit. It could mean he'll be the next Shea Weber/Chris Pronger, or it could mean the next Derian Hatcher, or the next Barrett Jackman, the next Chris Therien, etc.
- jmatchett383

This is all just semantics. The generally idea is that a player could be "really good" if someone calls them a top pairing or whatever. We need to make a list of terms that we can pull from to avoid this because there are way too many arguments on this site stemming from how one person labels a player vs. another.

Weber, Pietrangelo, suter and others spent 2+ seasons in the minors/juniors. They turned out ok.
- PhillySportsGuy

Here is a list of defenseman who all spent more than 3 years (in most cases four years) in juniors:

Brent Seabrook
Mike Green
Dion Phaneuf
Jason Demers
Brian Campbell
Jared Spurgeon
Francois Beauchemin
Travis Hamonic
James Wisniewski
Ryan Murray
Jared Cowan
Dennis Wideman

Not saying all of these guys are amazing, but there are some pretty great players on this list. There are a few who are also not much to write home about, but still very serviceable defensemen.

I'm not worried about Morin playing a fourth year of juniors decreasing his chances of ever becoming an impact NHL defenseman. There's never a guarantee, but he could still become a great player with 4 years of juniors under his belt.

I'd bet he makes more than half of the NHL clubs today. Ghostisbehere too. The Flyers are stuck. Not bad enough to risk the rough spots and not good enough to protect the rookies.
- mayorofangrytown

That's why I lean on the conservative side and give Ghost, Morin and Hagg some extra seasoning. I think the former two could play a chunk of games in the NHL this year anyway and, barring a set back, I'd be shocked if Morin doesn't next year.

Yeah, agreed. I was looking at it for a totally different reason. I really believe that the whole "ruined him in the NHL" thing is a joke. If you have the talent to play in the NHL it typically comes fairly quickly to the forefront.

You kinda have to discount guys from overseas and college kids in the mix.

I would really like to have time to go through more but it was worth discussing I thought. I have no preconceived notion as to what Morin will become. Ghostisbehere I expect big things from and he's past the second yr thing. Being in College changes the time line I've seen in my small sample certainly. Those guys tend to stay two to three seasons at least.
- mayorofangrytown

I believe Morin could play in the NHL and be alright. I think the dilemma for the Flyers is that they can't shield a 19 year old with this roster.

Plus, he won't get the opportunity to work on PP skills in the NHL. He would be able to in Juniors.

Yep. MacDonald as a complimentary player on a second pairing is probably his ceiling. I would love to dump his contract, and let either Ghost or Morin play at a fraction of the cost. It's not like the Flyers are a legit contender with MacDonald anyway.
- PLindbergh31

Wish morin could go to the A, but those are the rules. Let's see what ghost is like by Jan. If he's holding up well and is better w/o the puck, I'd be ok w/ a look see. Love to see him be a dan boyle 2.0.

I think we' re stuck w/ a lot of these contracts unless a contender has a major injury bef the TDL. but if 8, 22 or 47 were off loaded for picks, i wouldn't cry, that's for sure.

I believe Morin could play in the NHL and be alright. I think the dilemma for the Flyers is that they can't shield a 19 year old with this roster.

Plus, he won't get the opportunity to work on PP skills in the NHL. He would be able to in Juniors.
- PhillySportsGuy

I agree with that. His game still has room to grow, and he could grow certain areas of it more in juniors than in the NHL.

If your pizza is edible after 18 minutes in the oven, but tastes better after 20 minutes, are you willing to wait the extra 2 minutes?

Here is a list of defenseman who all spent more than 3 years (in most cases four years) in juniors:

Brent Seabrook
Mike Green
Dion Phaneuf
Jason Demers
Brian Campbell
Jared Spurgeon
Francois Beauchemin
Travis Hamonic
James Wisniewski
Ryan Murray
Jared Cowan
Dennis Wideman

Not saying all of these guys are amazing, but there are some pretty great players on this list. There are a few who are also not much to write home about, but still very serviceable defensemen.

I'm not worried about Morin playing a fourth year of juniors decreasing his chances of ever becoming an impact NHL defenseman. There's never a guarantee, but he could still become a great player with 4 years of juniors under his belt.
- mcefalu

Yeah, that's not all that amazing. Let me take four hours and I'll pull all the D taken in the first and first half of the second round of the last ten yrs who spent two yrs in junior and didn't get a cup of coffee.

How many D jumped first year and didn't play 300 NHL games because of it? I'll bet the list is considerably smaller. Sbisa won't be on it. He'll get to 300 this season.

Wish morin could go to the A, but those are the rules. Let's see what ghost is like by Jan. If he's holding up well and is better w/o the puck, I'd be ok w/ a look see. Love to see him be a dan boyle 2.0.

I think we' re stuck w/ a lot of these contracts unless a contender has a major injury bef the TDL. but if 8, 22 or 47 were off loaded for picks, i wouldn't cry, that's for sure.
- isaiah520

Unless AMAC changes his #, 47 isn't going anywhere for the next 3-4 years minimum.

I believe Morin could play in the NHL and be alright. I think the dilemma for the Flyers is that they can't shield a 19 year old with this roster.

Plus, he won't get the opportunity to work on PP skills in the NHL. He would be able to in Juniors.
- PhillySportsGuy

I don't know, he could play with Del Zotto on the 2nd unit.

Or they could continue putting forwards on the points instead :/

I'm a Power Slave and Seventh Son fan, personally.
- jmatchett383

powerslave is probably my favorite.

In general, I prefer first albums. When it comes to Iron Maiden, old Maiden and Bruce Maiden are very different bands.

Number of the Beast might be the best song ever, imo.
- BulliesPhan87

very different, but both great.

big fan of NotB. not my favorite though.

I agree with that. His game still has room to grow, and he could grow certain areas of it more in juniors than in the NHL.

If your pizza is edible after 18 minutes in the oven, but tastes better after 20 minutes, are you willing to wait the extra 2 minutes?
- jmatchett383

In the case your pizza is edible after 18 mins but you have to commit to an additional 18 mins. Whatcha gonna do?

I agree with that. His game still has room to grow, and he could grow certain areas of it more in juniors than in the NHL.

If your pizza is edible after 18 minutes in the oven, but tastes better after 20 minutes, are you willing to wait the extra 2 minutes?
- jmatchett383

Depends on if that 2 minutes makes me late somewhere lol

very different, but both great.

big fan of NotB. not my favorite though.
- hammarby31

mostly unrelated, but sometimes my brain mistakes you for a drummer instead of a goalie. Brains are kinda funny.

Yeah, that's not all that amazing. Let me take four hours and I'll pull all the D taken in the first and first half of the second round of the last ten yrs who spent two yrs in junior and didn't get a cup of coffee.

How many D jumped first year and didn't play 300 NHL games because of it? I'll bet the list is considerably smaller. Sbisa won't be on it. He'll get to 300 this season.
- mayorofangrytown

Different defenseman grow at different rates. When they drafted Morin, everyone was told he was going to take time to develop.

I think he proved he can play at or close to NHL level. If they Flyers had a deep roster and a spot for Morin, I bet he'd be on this team.