That's super. I'm not talking about two games this season, but about his entire career.



- Jsaquella

The talent and ability that MacDonald has is obvious. He's spent a large part of his career playing for teams that are weak defensively, and lack the support that top teams have in the team game. As well as being asked to play in a role that he's really not suited for. He's not a top pairing defenseman. But all of that is ignored and he's labeled a #5 defenseman. He's a solid puck moving #3 NHL defenseman. Even on a good team.

As far as creating chances, that part of the job was done to a T
- Jsaquella

MDZ: +17 Fen diff (30FF/13FA) 54.17PDO -4
Luke: +15 Fen diff (23FF/8FA) 28.57PDO -5

I mean, those numbers are nuts.

He's played two games this season. Direct quote from you today at 7:58 AM:

Crazy for talking trades two games in and getting the top pick but totally reasonable to call AMac a #3 defenseman in the same span?
- NickTheKid87

Yes it is totally reasonable to call MacDonald a #3 defenseman at this point. Because that's what he is.

And yes, it is ridiculous to be talking making trades in a panic after two games.

Yes it is totally reasonable to call MacDonald a #3 defenseman at this point. Because that's what he is.

And yes, it is ridiculous to be talking making trades in a panic after two games.
- MJL

With that logic, Umberger is an AHLer and Simmonds is going to be an 80-goal scorer.

The talent and ability that MacDonald has is obvious. He's spent a large part of his career playing for teams that are weak defensively, and lack the support that top teams have in the team game. As well as being asked to play in a role that he's really not suited for. He's not a top pairing defenseman. But all of that is ignored and he's labeled a #5 defenseman. He's a solid puck moving #3 NHL defenseman. Even on a good team.
- MJL

It's not ignored. I disagree with your assessment. Doesn't mean I'm wrong. Doesn't mean you're wrong. It means we have different opinions.

The difference is, I don't demand others accept my opinion as facts.

If you pinch and the other team gets the puck, you failed on your pinch attempt. Bounces be damned.
- jmatchett383

No, because it is a team game. The idea of pinching is to keep the puck in the zone and keep it from leaving. By blocking the rim of the opposition along the wall, Del Zotto did that. It was just bad puck luck that it bounced right to Greene. And there is also supposed to be help from the forechecking wingers to help sustain the offensive pressure. The left side defenseman pinching is an intergral part of the Center lock forecheck, to block reverses and rims that teams use to alleviate forechecking pressure, to try and break out. Del Zotto had a legitimate play on the puck there. Versus when Streit pinched and didn't have a legitimate shot and made a bad read leading to a goal against.

It's not ignored. I disagree with your assessment. Doesn't mean I'm wrong. Doesn't mean you're wrong. It means we have different opinions.

The difference is, I don't demand others accept my opinion as facts.
- Jsaquella

I haven't demanded anything of you. That is your invention. I gave my opinion, same as you did.

No, because it is a team game. The idea of pinching is to keep the puck in the zone and keep it from leaving. By blocking the rim of the opposition along the wall, Del Zotto did that. It was just bad puck luck that it bounced right to Greene. And there is also supposed to be help from the forechecking wingers to help sustain the offensive pressure. The left side defenseman pinching is an intergral part of the Center lock forecheck, to block reverses and rims that teams use to alleviate forechecking pressure, to try and break out. Del Zotto had a legitimate play on the puck there. Versus when Streit pinched and didn't have a legitimate shot and made a bad read leading to a goal against.
- MJL

I'm right, you're wrong.

He does need to play better when he gets back. He's having a rough start, counting pre-season, but he can be very solid.

I really wish Grossmann or MDZ could play the right side
- Jsaquella

Certainly, you want to see Coburn elevate his game on his own, not always need to have a partner who can elevate it. I totally agree with that.

But my feeling is this, especially after watching last night: If Coburn's not playing well, the Flyers are looking at giving up three, maybe four goals in any given game. If he plays solidly or even well, then it's one or two, maybe three. It won't always be pretty, but we're as likely to get Boston on opening night as anything else, especially if Mason is playing well.

But if Coburn were out completely?

I don't know that Mason's GAA would start with a "2" at any point this season, and might be closer to 3.5-3.7 than I, for one, would care to admit.

With that logic, Umberger is an AHLer and Simmonds is going to be an 80-goal scorer.
- NickTheKid87

Umberger's played well in both games.

I'm right, you're wrong.
- jmatchett383

Common, you have to admit, he does have a point there.

Umberger's played well in both games.
- Feanor

You get the idea.

Umberger's played well in both games.
- Feanor

for an ahler sure

Mac & Coburn doesn't work well as a pairing.

MDZ and Schenn doesn't work well because MDZ roves too much and LSchenn is not quick enough physically or mentally to cover for him.

So I would go with this lineup against Dallas if Coburn is fit:

MDZ-Coburn
Grossmann-Streit
MacDonald-LSchenn
- Feanor

Before each game, Berube should put the 6 dmen's name in a hat. Pick two pieces of paper out at a time..... Boom there are your pairings!

With the current group, it's re-shuffling the deck chairs on the Titanic any way you pair them.

.... It's not as if MacDonald was playing 20 minutes a night on a good defense. He was one of the Isles better defensemen, but if he was on a team like Chicago, St Louis, LA, or the Rangers, he's probably not playing 20 minutes a night. He's not an awful player, but it amazes me the reaction one gets when it's suggested he's little more than a depth guy.
- Jsaquella

Everyone has been clammering for *years* about getting some top end defensemen and we got him.. Pronger.

The bottom line is that Pronger and Timonen *were* two top tier defensemen. If we had Pronger, Timonen Carle and Coburn thats a very solid top 4.

We would've not had to get into wasting so much effort$ on all of those mid tier defensemen woes (Grossman, Kubina, Schenn, Foster, MacDonald, DelZ, Schultz, etc, etc, etc)

not to mention we would still have JvR..

Common, you have to admit, he does have a point there.
- Tomahawk

I'm not here to deal in hypotheticals. The facts are that he pinched, did not get the puck or move it forward, and the other team was able to cash in on an odd-man rush because he was caught up the ice.

Before each game, Berube should put the 6 dmen's name in a hat. Pick two pieces of paper out at a time..... Boom there are your pairings!

With the current group, it's re-shuffling the deck chairs on the Titanic any way you pair them.
- PLindbergh31

Maybe the people in the chairs closest to the lifeboats got out and the people towards the back didn't.

Everyone has been clammering for *years* about getting some top end defensemen and we got him.. Pronger.

The bottom line is that Pronger and Timonen *were* two top tier defensemen. If we had Pronger, Timonen Carle and Coburn thats a very solid top 4.

We would not had to get into wasting so much effort$ on all of those mid tier defensemen woes (Grossman, Kubina, Schenn, Foster, MacDonald, DelZ, Schultz, etc, etc, etc)

not to mention we would still have JvR..
- MrBigglesworth

Just because Pronger suffered a career ending injury, didn't mean the Flyers had to go out and sell JVR for 10 cents on the dollar out of desperation.

MDZ: +17 Fen diff (30FF/13FA) 54.17PDO -4
Luke: +15 Fen diff (23FF/8FA) 28.57PDO -5

I mean, those numbers are nuts.
- Tomahawk

Del Zotto shouldn't have been a -4 last night, in my opinion. Schenn shouldn't have been a -5, either, but what are you going to do?

Having the bones in their feet broken by slapshots would make them slower.
- Feanor

or they could quit acting like girls

Umberger's played well in both games.
- Feanor

Except for one poor backcheck on the Ryder goal, I agree.

I haven't demanded anything of you. That is your invention. I gave my opinion, same as you did.
- MJL

I haven't said that calling MacDonald a solid number three is "mind boggling". That was your exact statement to my post saying he's a 4/5.

I'd say both opinions are reasonable, and I did not attack your opinion with an insult, suggesting it was a ridiculous opinion to have. Also, as usual, you mis characterized what I said, by focusing on one part of the post. Saying a player is a 4/5 is in fact saying he's capable of being on a second pair-which is not calling him a third pair player. It's an acknowledgement that he can play on a second pair.

You chose to ignore that part of my post, which is disingenuous on your part. You routinely do both, which is why I routinely ignore you. I don't mind a debate, but to be quite honest, you don't debate. You bludgeon people with your opinion without really giving their thoughts a full and fair consideration. It's tiresome and pointless. I find it "mind boggling" that I wasted so much time on it in the past, and I refuse to do so in the future.

or they could quit acting like girls
- 2Real

wait, are girls known for having broken feet?

I'm not here to deal in hypotheticals. The facts are that he pinched, did not get the puck or move it forward, and the other team was able to cash in on an odd-man rush because he was caught up the ice.
- jmatchett383

The entire design of the Center Lock forecheck is for either the forward who is at the center position (3rd man high) or the weak side defenseman to prevent against reverses and breakouts to that side of the ice. When a defenseman pinches and makes a good read, as Del Zotto did on that play. By design, that forward is supposed to back him up, which Voracek did, to prevent odd man rushes. Voracek hustled back to prevent the 2 on 1, and Schenn didn't get his stick on the shot, and Mason should've had the save.
There is no hypothetical involved. Del Zotto was playing the system there.

Mac & Coburn doesn't work well as a pairing.

MDZ and Schenn doesn't work well because MDZ roves too much and LSchenn is not quick enough physically or mentally to cover for him.

So I would go with this lineup against Dallas if Coburn is fit:

MDZ-Coburn
Grossmann-Streit
MacDonald-LSchenn
- Feanor

I might would try that; Luke Schenn just might not be able to handle being the partner of a rover in heavier-than-anticipated minutes