I do get the effort/intensity/hunger argument.

Here's the thing, when I played hockey-which I did for a long time-I was on some good teams and some bad teams. I consider myself a hard working player, and honestly was not the most talented guy. I was far more Nick Grossmann or Kent Manderville than Mark Howe or Dave Poulin. I had to work hard to justify my spot on the team.

The thing is, if you're on a team that is bad, can't execute properly and is getting badly outplayed, it can be hard to maintain that intensity. Despite being professionals, NHL players are people, too. They get frustrated. They get discouraged when bad things happen and that can lead to a bad play or seemingly bad compete level.

Anyone who has played a sport long enough understands the feeling when you're out there busting your ass and Jimmy turns the puck over or boots the grounder or whatever and the other team scores.
- Jsaquella

I agree. My meaning was if the team came out to start the game with a low intensity level, that would be unacceptable. I can understand losing it because of poor execution and such or having it increase because of good execution. But if the Flyers came out of the locker room for the 1st period in Chicago and simply had a low compete level, that would not be ok.

I think against Chicago, they were outplayed early by Chicago plus were making their own mistakes and lost that edge, the intensity level. In Pittsburgh, they executed well to start the game and had some good PKs and that caused them to gain confidence and keep the intensity level up.

"Wanting it more" and "wanting it less" are more effects of execution, etc. than they are causes of it, IMO.

I do get the effort/intensity/hunger argument.

Here's the thing, when I played hockey-which I did for a long time-I was on some good teams and some bad teams. I consider myself a hard working player, and honestly was not the most talented guy. I was far more Nick Grossmann or Kent Manderville than Mark Howe or Dave Poulin. I had to work hard to justify my spot on the team.

The thing is, if you're on a team that is bad, can't execute properly and is getting badly outplayed, it can be hard to maintain that intensity. Despite being professionals, NHL players are people, too. They get frustrated. They get discouraged when bad things happen and that can lead to a bad play or seemingly bad compete level.

Anyone who has played a sport long enough understands the feeling when you're out there busting your ass and Jimmy turns the puck over or boots the grounder or whatever and the other team scores.
- Jsaquella

Great stuff...

Here is another example.

I played on an "A/B+" league team for the past 5-6 years. This past season we folded, and I play on a team with a fellow HBer... That team is in the C league. It is a much more difficult league to play in strictly because of guys not doing what they should be doing. I still work my ass off, and compete and what not, but two wingers being on the same side of the ice leaving guys wide open and causing breakdowns ends up looking like people are not competing. In all actuality its the opposite. We have guys that are so focused on trying to work hard or get the puck, that they burn themselves out, and are constantly out of position. It is infuriating.

- Jsaquella

lol... All teams are gonna have good games and bad games. All teams will have games where they dont bring and where they bring it. They are all NHL teams.. and all capable of winning. Flyers have one regulation win, against a team that they always get up for and seem to have their number. It still doesnt change my opinion that they are not a great team. They are a so-so team who played big last night. Ill cheer for them no matter what. Last night was great to see.
- jak521

You make my point by stating that they always "get up" for the Pens. The Flyers showed up and played the entire game with energy, emotion, and commitment. And they limited the breakdowns that have been killing them. And it was an obvious difference from the game against Chicago. That's not about good games and bad games. Or the normal ebbs and flows of an 82 game season, where one team just doesn't have it's legs. If you want to see a team imploding, review the 3rd period of the Montreal game. Drastically different from the 3rd priod last night.

But good teams can still win on off nights.
- bradleyc4

It didn't even look like Chicago brought their A-game for the entire 60-mins the other night.

Immediately after they scored they were hemmed in their own zone. Malkin had 3-4 very good chances in one shift, and Emery had to play hero. It was very scary.

We then iced the puck a few times (stupidly) and gotta a good/albeit lucky open netter to seal the deal. They played a very solid game, but they we definitely on egg shells when it got back to a one goal game.
- jak521

The Flyers are playing the top offensive team in the League. It's unreasonable to not expect a push back from them in the 3rd period. Especially as one team starts taking chances and gets more aggressive tactically, while another team tactically goes in a defensive mode. But what the difference was is the Flyers didn't stop skating, continued to win puck battles and puck races, and continued to compete. Of course there were some scary moments. The Pens are a top team. But I felt confident in how the Flyers were going to win the game, in hiw they were playing. One soft puck play by Del Zotto, and a bad decision by Voracek was the only reason why the Pens got back in the game. And I understand with the way the Flyers have been breaking down defensively at times, why there was doubt. But that game had a completely different feel to it then the 3rd priod of the Montreal game. There they imploded.

Nobody disputes this... but wanting it more isn't going to mask fundamental issues this team still has. Nobody is saying compete/jam/passion is irrelevant... we're just saying it's simply one item on a very long to-do list.
- Tomahawk

Never said that it would. And never stated that it is the Flyers only issue. I've posted extensively about the individual mistakes and breakdowns that have been an issue that has plagued the Flyers this year. So if you think that I think that playing with emotion and urgency is the Flyers only issue, then you're mistaken.

It didn't even look like Chicago brought their A-game for the entire 60-mins the other night.
- Tomahawk

And the Flyers brought no game. The effort in Chicago was inexcusable. There is some merit in what Jsaq says. When you get down your effort suffers. But there is no excuse for not coming out of the gate with effort.

Show some pride in yourselves.

You make my point by stating that they always "get up" for the Pens. The Flyers showed up and played the entire game with energy, emotion, and commitment. And they limited the breakdowns that have been killing them. And it was an obvious difference from the game against Chicago. That's not about good games and bad games. Or the normal ebbs and flows of an 82 game season, where one team just doesn't have it's legs. If you want to see a team imploding, review the 3rd period of the Montreal game. Drastically different from the 3rd priod last night.
- MJL

Jesus guy.. the point is that they should not have to always "get up". That is what we have been trying to say for the past 26 hours. If you have team that needs to get up to have a good game you have a problem. Good teams execute night in and out. Not just about playing with intensity and compete. They get by with talent and smarts. What the hawks did to us had as much to do with their skill level throughout their line-up, their team wide commitment/execution within a two way game and fantastic coaching as it did with us not having high competitive drive. There is a reason they have that effect on teams. They execute so well it makes teams look slow and disinterested. They are the cream of the crop.

If you want to see a team nearly implode, watch the way the Flyers played immediately following that goal. I never said they imploded. They were able to hang on and get that empty netter, but it wasnt a breezy go of it.

Agreed. Flyers didnt win this game because they "wanted it more". To me it was because the forwards were getting back and helping the defense. The offense is generally never the issue.
- GOA88

Berube tactically changed his forecheck and it seemed to work. There were lots of reasons why they won. But the bottom line is if they had competed at the level they did against Chicago, the night before. They wouldn't have beaten the Pens.

And the Flyers brought no game. The effort in Chicago was inexcusable. There is some merit in what Jsaq says. When you get down your effort suffers. But there is no excuse for not coming out of the gate with effort.

Show some pride in yourselves.
- MBFlyerfan

The funny thing is that every single player and coach has said that it was a bad period in Chicago. We were dominated for three periods... even the two after "we got our legs". That is my point. Forget that first period.. we never stood a chance. They just toy with teams. Do whatever they want.

I agree. My meaning was if the team came out to start the game with a low intensity level, that would be unacceptable. I can understand losing it because of poor execution and such or having it increase because of good execution. But if the Flyers came out of the locker room for the 1st period in Chicago and simply had a low compete level, that would not be ok.

I think against Chicago, they were outplayed early by Chicago plus were making their own mistakes and lost that edge, the intensity level. In Pittsburgh, they executed well to start the game and had some good PKs and that caused them to gain confidence and keep the intensity level up.

"Wanting it more" and "wanting it less" are more effects of execution, etc. than they are causes of it, IMO.
- NickTheKid87

The Flyers didn't show up in the first period against Chicago. That's why they got badly outplayed.

And I disagree completely with your last statement. It's the opposite. If you're not skating, and not competing, you can't execute. It's like not putting gas in a car.

Berube tactically changed his forecheck and it seemed to work. There were lots of reasons why they won. But the bottom line is if they had competed at the level they did against Chicago, the night before. They wouldn't have beaten the Pens.
- MJL

And vice versa... If the Pens played the way the Hawks did the night before... they wouldnt have won either. You have to give good teams credit. What the Hawks did the other night, thats the reason they have cups and what not.

I didn't get to see the game last night because I was watching Primus do Charlie and The Chocolate Factory at the Tower.


But I see that RJ woke up and got a Gordie Howe hat trick. I'm sure the haters were bleeding all over their keyboards. I'm sorry I missed it.
- MBFlyerfan

Not a hater of RJ, just the poor trade for him. Have been rooting for him the whole time, just as I'm rooting for Hartnell


Couldn't be happier this morning

Glad to know hunger was the only factor.

You're right... Pens' terrible defensive coverage, flippant play at the opposing blueline and MAF had nothing to do with it. And Flyers' L2 providing much needed offensive pressure, a bit more balanced usage for all 4 lines, and better execution all around didn't contribute to the W.

We'll just distill it all down to hunger and compete...
- Tomahawk

Again, if you think I think hunger was the only factor, you're mistaken. But it is a huge factor.

Craig Adams had a CF% of 0% last night. I don't know exactly what that means, but I think it's bad.

The Flyers didn't show up in the first period against Chicago. That's why they got badly outplayed.

And I disagree completely with your last statement. It's the opposite. If you're not skating, and not competing, you can't execute. It's like not putting gas in a car.
- MJL

How can a team not show up though? And if they can, how is that acceptable?

As for the chicken and the egg argument, it can work both ways.

Agreed, you need effort and intensity. Especially when the talent level is lesser. But good teams can still win on off nights.
- bradleyc4

That's true. But a team like the Flyers isn't going to have much of a chance against teams like Chicago and the Pens if they don't bring that effort and intensity.

You make my point by stating that they always "get up" for the Pens. The Flyers showed up and played the entire game with energy, emotion, and commitment. And they limited the breakdowns that have been killing them. And it was an obvious difference from the game against Chicago. That's not about good games and bad games. Or the normal ebbs and flows of an 82 game season, where one team just doesn't have it's legs. If you want to see a team imploding, review the 3rd period of the Montreal game. Drastically different from the 3rd priod last night.
- MJL

The problem with making projections based on this specific game is that you are isolating on one variable, the emotion and energy the Flyers play with against the Pens, and ignoring another key variable in this, which is the Pen's emotional state when playing the Flyers.

The reality is that the Pens seem a bit snake-bitten against the Flyers. It's like they're almost waiting for a bad bounce (despite having seemingly all good bounces) or the momentum to shift the Flyers way. When the Flyers survived that early onslaught, the wind was swiped from their sails.

Even if the Flyers played with the intensity of the 2nd/3rd period last night against every team, not every team will collapse the way the Pens seem to do against us. Don't get me wrong - I would love it if they do play every team like their the Pens. But there are more ingredients in the recipe for success than this alone.

Glad the Flyers won, it helps my hangover!

Need some breakfast
and coffee, lots and lots of coffee

Craig Adams had a CF% of 0% last night. I don't know exactly what that means, but I think it's bad.
- jmatchett383

and 100% offensive zone starts

Great stuff...

Here is another example.

I played on an "A/B+" league team for the past 5-6 years. This past season we folded, and I play on a team with a fellow HBer... That team is in the C league. It is a much more difficult league to play in strictly because of guys not doing what they should be doing. I still work my ass off, and compete and what not, but two wingers being on the same side of the ice leaving guys wide open and causing breakdowns ends up looking like people are not competing. In all actuality its the opposite. We have guys that are so focused on trying to work hard or get the puck, that they burn themselves out, and are constantly out of position. It is infuriating.
- jak521

It's pretty easy to tell the difference between players or a team competing or not competing, versus simply making mistakes. As an example, the Flyers competed against NJ. But they just had so many breakdowns and mistakes in coverage, that it cost them the game. There is a clear difference.

And vice versa... If the Pens played the way the Hawks did the night before... they wouldnt have won either. You have to give good teams credit. What the Hawks did the other night, thats the reason they have cups and what not.
- jak521

Maybe, but at least make it difficult for the opposing team. Don't just roll over and die after you lose the opening faceoff.

Maybe, but at least make it difficult for the opposing team. Don't just roll over and die after you lose the opening faceoff.
- MBFlyerfan

Aha, so we have pinpointed the cluprit! They won the opening faceoff last night and won the game. I think we have a recipe for success: start all centers.

The problem with making projections based on this specific game is that you are isolating on one variable, the emotion and energy the Flyers play with against the Pens, and ignoring another key variable in this, which is the Pen's emotional state when playing the Flyers.

The reality is that the Pens seem a bit snake-bitten against the Flyers. It's like they're almost waiting for a bad bounce (despite having seemingly all good bounces) or the momentum to shift the Flyers way. When the Flyers survived that early onslaught, the wind was swiped from their sails.

Even if the Flyers played with the intensity of the 2nd/3rd period last night against every team, not every team will collapse the way the Pens seem to do against us. Don't get me wrong - I would love it if they do play every team like their the Pens. But there are more ingredients in the recipe for success than this alone.
- TheGreat28

I haven't made any projections based on this game. Teams seem to match up against some teams better then others. But my point is why can't they seem to bring the same intensity consistently against other teams. This game only shows one thing. How they're capable of playing against a good team. It does not however show that they will continue to do so against good teams. And I also have not stated that they will, only that they can.