Here's the problem, though: minus Grossmann and Schenn, the Flyers are severely lacking size and physicality on the blueline, which you need some of in the mix, too. Of the two, Grossmann is simply the better at his designated role than Schenn has been over their respective careers.

I have seen Dallas struggle with that issue for several years. They've got plenty of mobility, passing acumen and finesse on D but not enough size or muscle to complement it. Nemeth was their "young Grossmann" hopeful but is now lost for the season and Oleksiak has really struggled in many of his games at the NHL level, leaving only the steady Brenden Dillon to supply those traits.

I'd be fine with the Flyers trading Grossmann -- as much as I like him both as a person and a player in his role -- but then who do you get to play that role and does it actually save you cap space/ trade assets to find a comparable or superior replacement? It will not be Oliver Lauridsen or anyone else currently eligible for a callup.

If the Flyers want to go into full-blown rebuilding mode, that's one thing (although then you are wasting Giroux, Simmonds and Voracek in their primes). If they want to continue to be a bubble team while trying to develop their young defenseman and resisting trading assets away, you've got the current product for what might be a few more years.

There is no doubt the Flyers need a true number one and two defenseman in his prime, which would actually make the rest of the group seem MUCH better as they get deployed in more ideal situations -- think Meszaros' Barry Ashbee Trophy season when Lavy was able to get him a lot of offensive zone starts and avoid a lot of heavy lifting against other teams' top lines.

Unfortunately, no one who has a top-end D man in his prime and locked into a multi-year dear is about to trade the guy.

The Flyers need to get a little lucky.... basically like a latter day version of the deal with Montreal that netted Desjardins and LeClair. But there probably isn't such a deal out there to be made, and Brayden Schenn (even if you think he will blossom into stardom) is nowhere near the trading chip that an in-his-prime Mark Recchi was back in 1995.

Sad but true.
- bmeltzer

This hurt my soul

bump


- -davies-

I don't think it's a structural change as much as a philosophical change. Berube's stated he wants the team to be more of a possession team. Being able to carry the puck in is a huge part of retaining possession.

Having defenseman who can stand up forwards at the blue line is also a key to denying possession for other teams. Thats one of the reasons why Hextall has talked about getting players who can skate.

Which is why I don't know how you don't understand this concept
- funmaster18

B/c if he makes mistakes the worst that happens is they lose a game. In brain surgery someone could die. He has the physical tools, he's quick and crafty with the disc, needs to work on his positioning away from the puck, it's not world ending he does that with the big club considering all the injuries. Hell he might even do some of the things asked of him better than the guys there.

Del Zotto played 22:37 last night and was plus-2. If he keeps doing anything close to that, that dude's gonna play himself into an extension

All these injuries means Del Zotto gets to sink or swim on his own merit, no excuses

bump


- -davies-

IMO there's a point in hockey where talent/ability has to take over X's and O's ... I think last night berube made some x and o adjustments but the players seemed to play better. The two are symbiotic, which is why I think laviolette was fired: he didn't adjust his xo's to the talent he had.

Del Zotto played 22:37 last night and was plus-2. If he keeps doing anything close to that, that dude's gonna play himself into an extension

All these injuries means Del Zotto gets to sink or swim on his own merit, no excuses
- AllInForFlyers

No he was rushed

No he was rushed
- JoeRussomanno

Ha! I've been following both sides of your debate, and you both have points.

I do agree with you on one big thing: Luke Schenn being in the NHL at 18 didn't make him a worse skater or worse passer. The game has gotten even faster than his draft year, mentally and physically. Clearly, he struggles to keep up against high-end talent.

I don't know what the answer is. Confidence is important. You can ruin some kids. Some kids will survive. The Flyers, right now, might not have enough assets to risk ruining any of them. But at the same time, how do you know unless you play them?

No good answers.

I think it comes down to more than just one player (obviously). Wednesday - Couturier's whole unit played amazing (TSN had a great breakdown/analysis of Sean's line from the Pens game).

Last night Raffl played very well. Voracek has continued his great play and production. Grossmann played a whale of a game (despite a few brainfarts like blatantly icing the puck in the waning moments of the 3rd period). Emery was unreal. Umberger has started to look a bit stronger on the puck and has really stood out on the PK IMO. MDZ is starting to make plays more consistently.
- Pixote Andolini

The icing was an intended pass for Read but had way too much steam on it and was off the mark. He also had a bad failed clear in the first period. Otherwise played one his best games.

They would want BSchenn for him.
- Feanor

They may not even want BSchenn with the way Draisaitl has been playing.

They may not even want BSchenn with the way Draisaitl has been playing.
- hereticpride

Which is fine; the Flyers need to keep all of their younger assets right now, IMO, until Coburn and MacDonald get back and you can truly evaluate this roster and their development.

They have the obvious holes. But there's no need to sell low right now. They need to suck it up for a month with what they have, get Coburn and MacDonald back, play with them, and see where they are.

Schenn's been better the last five games. He's got points in four of his last six. There's just no need to do anything right now.

Ha! I've been following both sides of your debate, and you both have points.

I do agree with you on one big thing: Luke Schenn being in the NHL at 18 didn't make him a worse skater or worse passer. The game has gotten even faster than his draft year, mentally and physically. Clearly, he struggles to keep up against high-end talent.

I don't know what the answer is. Confidence is important. You can ruin some kids. Some kids will survive. The Flyers, right now, might not have enough assets to risk ruining any of them. But at the same time, how do you know unless you play them?

No good answers.
- AllInForFlyers

On the other hand, when he played with Timonen as his main partner during the 2012-13 season, he kept things simpler -- wasn't getting out position, for one thing -- and was actually one of the bright spots that year. Last year was a backward step, especially in the first half of the season, and his ice time was cut and role reduced. This year has been, at best, a lateral step so far.

On the other hand, when he played with Timonen as his main partner during the 2012-13 season, he kept things simpler -- wasn't getting out position, for one thing -- and was actually one of the bright spots that year. Last year was a backward step, especially in the first half of the season, and his ice time was cut and role reduced. This year has been, at best, a lateral step so far.
- bmeltzer

Everyone looks good when paired with Kimmo though. Flyers miss him a ton. It was like losing 2 defenseman with his injury; him and his partner.

On the other hand, when he played with Timonen as his main partner during the 2012-13 season, he kept things simpler -- wasn't getting out position, for one thing -- and was actually one of the bright spots that year. Last year was a backward step, especially in the first half of the season, and his ice time was cut and role reduced. This year has been, at best, a lateral step so far.
- bmeltzer

He looks adequate with MacDonald, too -- but only as a third-pair defenseman.

I don't know what the hell to do with him, Bill. I don't mind if he's just a third-pair defenseman, because you do need three pairs. But if you're going to be that, you've got to be a "set and forget" kind of player who does keep things simple, doesn't make the glaring mistakes that he sometimes makes that are inexplicable.

Schenn, I bet, drives coaches crazy. Because once or twice a game, he does something that just leaves you scratching your head. You can't have that on the third pair.

Ha! I've been following both sides of your debate, and you both have points.

I do agree with you on one big thing: Luke Schenn being in the NHL at 18 didn't make him a worse skater or worse passer. The game has gotten even faster than his draft year, mentally and physically. Clearly, he struggles to keep up against high-end talent.

I don't know what the answer is. Confidence is important. You can ruin some kids. Some kids will survive. The Flyers, right now, might not have enough assets to risk ruining any of them. But at the same time, how do you know unless you play them?

No good answers.
- AllInForFlyers

I don't have a problem with the other side's argument only that, hextall is being stubborn to a fault. The team is n dire straits, u have a prospect or three in their early 20's not teens in the AHL that can help you but we wanna go pick through the garbage b/c conceivably some prospects didn't become bobby Orr after being drafted high and playing early in the NHL. ... Look it's always smoke and mirrors with this club, a guy is skating and expected back to play, the next you thing you know he's out for the rest of his career, they make a guy captain, sign him to a 10 year deal, trade him a year later. I hi I you have to throw out what they say as if never uttered and look at what they do, and when you do that sometimes it's easier to figure it out, with this ghost situation I don't buy this malarkey about rushing, I think something else is going on, a trade, maybe their trying to actually tank, whatever, but in sports not just hockey, you put out the best roster and ghost is better than at least ONE guy out there.

LSchenn was good with Kimmo.

Fine with Gus or MacDonald.

Terrible with Meszaros or Del Zotto.

Hopefully he'll be OK with Ghost.

I don't think it's a structural change as much as a philosophical change. Berube's stated he wants the team to be more of a possession team. Being able to carry the puck in is a huge part of retaining possession.

Having defenseman who can stand up forwards at the blue line is also a key to denying possession for other teams. Thats one of the reasons why Hextall has talked about getting players who can skate.
- PhillySportsGuy

ty but i meant in last night's game
seemed like they couldn't get in to save their lives until the third

You can't just say they got rushed, what exactly did it do for schenn? Force him to skate slower? Force him to pass the puck blindly? Rob him of the complete ability to handle a puck and skate at the same time? These guys just weren't good enough.
- JoeRussomanno

At the WHL level Schenn used his size & Strength to be a dominant defensive player. When thrown in at the NHL level, he developed bad habits and never improved his hockey sense or ability to read a play.

That was never developed, and while he still has flaws, better hockey sense and ability read plays would certainly mitigate the issues he does have and that wouldn't be corrected by more time in the AHL

I don't have a problem with the other side's argument only that, hextall is being stubborn to a fault. The team is n dire straits, u have a prospect or three in their early 20's not teens in the AHL that can help you but we wanna go pick through the garbage b/c conceivably some prospects didn't become bobby Orr after being drafted high and playing early in the NHL. ... Look it's always smoke and mirrors with this club, a guy is skating and expected back to play, the next you thing you know he's out for the rest of his career, they make a guy captain, sign him to a 10 year deal, trade him a year later. I hi I you have to throw out what they say as if never uttered and look at what they do, and when you do that sometimes it's easier to figure it out, with this ghost situation I don't buy this malarkey about rushing, I think something else is going on, a trade, maybe their trying to actually tank, whatever, but in sports not just hockey, you put out the best roster and ghost is better than at least ONE guy out there.
- JoeRussomanno

Man, I hear you. You made some good points in there.

But this thing with Hextall and Ghost, I think for now, you have to take at face value. He sent him back even before Morin; I think they really want him to have some extended time with Terry Murray.

They aren't trying to tank, I feel. Coburn and MacDonald getting smoked, Timonen's blood clots -- they didn't see this poop coming.

They just have to ride this out. There's no deals out there that can help them. Whether it's one month or this season, they have got to try to ride this out.

It is gonna suck watching it, some nights, for the next month. But there's nothing out there that can help them, so they gotta try to suck it up, as best they can.

At the WHL level Schenn used his size & Strength to be a dominant defensive player. When thrown in at the NHL level, he developed bad habits and never improved his hockey sense or ability to read a play.

That was never developed, and while he still has flaws, better hockey sense and ability read plays would certainly mitigate the issues he does have and that wouldn't be corrected by more time in the AHL
- Jsaquella

Agree 100 percent, JS.

At the WHL level Schenn used his size & Strength to be a dominant defensive player. When thrown in at the NHL level, he developed bad habits and never improved his hockey sense or ability to read a play.

That was never developed, and while he still has flaws, better hockey sense and ability read plays would certainly mitigate the issues he does have and that wouldn't be corrected by more time in the AHL
- Jsaquella

His flaws are who he is, he could've learned better decision making studying film. Furthermore the minors and pro's play at a different style and pace so bad habits could be learned there as well. Again habits fall in the coaching job description.
It's not like the Bruins kept Hamilton buried for years in the minors.

Man, I hear you. You made some good points in there.

But this thing with Hextall and Ghost, I think for now, you have to take at face value. He sent him back even before Morin; I think they really want him to have some extended time with Terry Murray.

They aren't trying to tank, I feel. Coburn and MacDonald getting smoked, Timonen's blood clots -- they didn't see this poop coming.

They just have to ride this out. There's no deals out there that can help them. Whether it's one month or this season, they have got to try to ride this out.

It is gonna suck watching it, some nights, for the next month. But there's nothing out there that can help them, so they gotta try to suck it up, as best they can.
- AllInForFlyers

Then make Murray the head coach b/c it seems like all the players could use some time with him.

Then make Murray the head coach b/c it seems like all the players could use some time with him.
- JoeRussomanno

Truthfully? That's probably exactly what I would've done. But that's just me.

Truthfully? That's probably exactly what I would've done. But that's just me.
- AllInForFlyers

See this might be another case of Flyer GM says one thing, something else is going on. We can't play certain p,ayers b/c they'll learn bad habits from coach A, but coach B manufactures gretzkys and orrs

Here's the problem, though: minus Grossmann and Schenn, the Flyers are severely lacking size and physicality on the blueline, which you need some of in the mix, too. Of the two, Grossmann is simply the better at his designated role than Schenn has been over their respective careers.

I have seen Dallas struggle with that issue for several years. They've got plenty of mobility, passing acumen and finesse on D but not enough size or muscle to complement it. Nemeth was their "young Grossmann" hopeful but is now lost for the season and Oleksiak has really struggled in many of his games at the NHL level, leaving only the steady Brenden Dillon to supply those traits.

I'd be fine with the Flyers trading Grossmann -- as much as I like him both as a person and a player in his role -- but then who do you get to play that role and does it actually save you cap space/ trade assets to find a comparable or superior replacement? It will not be Oliver Lauridsen or anyone else currently eligible for a callup.

If the Flyers want to go into full-blown rebuilding mode, that's one thing (although then you are wasting Giroux, Simmonds and Voracek in their primes). If they want to continue to be a bubble team while trying to develop their young defenseman and resisting trading assets away, you've got the current product for what might be a few more years.

There is no doubt the Flyers need a true number one and two defenseman in his prime, which would actually make the rest of the group seem MUCH better as they get deployed in more ideal situations -- think Meszaros' Barry Ashbee Trophy season when Lavy was able to get him a lot of offensive zone starts and avoid a lot of heavy lifting against other teams' top lines.

Unfortunately, no one who has a top-end D man in his prime and locked into a multi-year dear is about to trade the guy.

The Flyers need to get a little lucky.... basically like a latter day version of the deal with Montreal that netted Desjardins and LeClair. But there probably isn't such a deal out there to be made, and Brayden Schenn (even if you think he will blossom into stardom) is nowhere near the trading chip that an in-his-prime Mark Recchi was back in 1995.

Sad but true.
- bmeltzer

sums a lot of things up right there!!!! Yeah i am not down on grossman as much as others. i think he is a solid guy who had a bad year. I xpect if healthy for him to be productive. with or without out him they are not going anywhere; who knows if or when he gets hurt. maybe a team gets crazy with an offer.

I want to see Alt at some point to see if he is a possibly cheap bottom pairing guy.

Tom Wilson is back in the AHL
- PhillySportsGuy

Well he did break his leg in the off-season he just got back to playing on Friday