I think leadership is important, but it certainly isn't the difference between a good team and an average team. The Flyers just lack the talent other teams have. They have 1 good scoring line, 1 good checking line and a few decent defenseman. Their goaltending is solid, but it's certainly not upper echelon.
- PhillySportsGuy

There's also a psychological principle at play too. A team that is winning games will have better "chemistry" and therefore will buy into a team game, etc. Winning makes people happy and good teams win. Losing makes people unhappy and sows discord among the team. Bad teams lose and the players are disgruntled. The view of good teams having good leadership and what not is derived from this. IMO, build a good roster first, then when the wins come, so will everything else.

Lol, nice double entendre.
- Tomahawk

I've always wanted one

"Not showing up" as you call it, is a general fluctuation, Mr. Simply.
- NickTheKid87

No it's not. It's something that can be controlled and fixed. Top teams don't have that issue. Hockey is not a difficult game to figure out. The coaches knew it and the players knew it, after the Florida game. But maybe Berube and the players should have explained it as just a general fluctuation, and no big deal, and just moved on to the next game as if it wasn't an issue.

There's also a psychological principle at play too. A team that is winning games will have better "chemistry" and therefore will buy into a team game, etc. Winning makes people happy and good teams win. Losing makes people unhappy and sows discord among the team. Bad teams lose and the players are disgruntled. The view of good teams having good leadership and what not is derived from this. IMO, build a good roster first, then when the wins come, so will everything else.
- NickTheKid87

"winning fixes everything"
also
"brevity is the soul of wit"

I think leadership is important, but it certainly isn't the difference between a good team and an average team. The Flyers just lack the talent other teams have. They have 1 good scoring line, 1 good checking line and a few decent defenseman. Their goaltending is solid, but it's certainly not upper echelon.
- PhillySportsGuy

You're correct. All the leadership in the World is not going to elevate the Flyers to a Cup team. But it would certainly help the Flyers to be the team they can be.

There's also a psychological principle at play too. A team that is winning games will have better "chemistry" and therefore will buy into a team game, etc. Winning makes people happy and good teams win. Losing makes people unhappy and sows discord among the team. Bad teams lose and the players are disgruntled. The view of good teams having good leadership and what not is derived from this. IMO, build a good roster first, then when the wins come, so will everything else.
- NickTheKid87

I guess people were expecting more from this team. They are pretty much where I thought they'd be. Perhaps, a little better when injuries are taken into account.

I like how people talk about the LA win like it was such a great win. They were missing their best player and playing with 11 forwards. They've been atrocious on their road trip getting beaten badly by both Pitt and Det then losing to the Hurricanes. The (frank)ing Hurricanes.

It was a nice win, but it's not like they beat a healthy Kings team in a 7 game series.

That has more to do with the fact that they are just ok. They play bad some games and good others because of their roster is average and they execute averagely.
- NickTheKid87

Not true, they play a lot of bad games simply because they don't show up. The Florida game was all about effort and urgency. Florida has a very below average roster. Yet they held the Flyers to 7 ES shots through two periods.

I guess people were expecting more from this team. They are pretty much where I thought they'd be. Perhaps, a little better when injuries are taken into account.

I like how people talk about the LA win like it was such a great win. They were missing their best player and playing with 11 forwards. They've been atrocious on their road trip getting beaten badly by both Pitt and Det then losing to the Hurricanes. The (frank)ing Hurricanes.

It was a nice win, but it's not like they beat a healthy Kings team in a 7 game series.
- PhillySportsGuy

Have to look at the games they played, and how they lost games that they should've won.

Not true, they play a lot of bad games simply because they don't show up. The Florida game was all about effort and urgency. Florida has a very below average roster. Yet they held the Flyers to 7 ES shots through two periods.
- MJL

I have seen the flyers many times in Sunrise and they usually are happy and joking with eachother during warm ups and looking at the fans in the stands. I get the feeling the team looks at the Florida triip as a vacation

L. Schenn was a top 5 draft pick, he's in his 7th year in the NHL and not only has his development stagnated, but he's regressed. How exactly is he a whipping boy? He's the 6th dman on an patchwork defense core.
- PLindbergh31

I didn't say his status as "whipping boy" was unwarranted...IMHO he is officially a bust and Homer made a poor trade.

I have seen the flyers many times in Sunrise and they usually are happy and joking with eachother during warm ups and looking at the fans in the stands. I get the feeling the team looks at the Florida triip as a vacation
- vejim

Yeah, they should be crying and shouting at each other during warm ups. Then they would never lose.

Totally unrelated football question:

The Eagles are in first place in their division even though they have the same amount of wins than the Cowboys, yet they have fewer losses. So, is it more wins or fewer losses that determine a division winner. Who would win in this (highly improbably) scenario:

Team A and Team B finish in first and second place in their division.

Team A finishes with a record of 9-5-2, with the 2 ties coming outside of the division.

Team B finishes with a 10-6 record.

Both finish with a 3-3 division record and the points scored between Team A and Team B is even.

Team B wins more games, but Team A has fewer losses. Just to clarify, Team B wins the division, correct?

No it's not. It's something that can be controlled and fixed. Top teams don't have that issue. Hockey is not a difficult game to figure out. The coaches knew it and the players knew it, after the Florida game. But maybe Berube and the players should have explained it as just a general fluctuation, and no big deal, and just moved on to the next game as if it wasn't an issue.
- MJL

I'm gonna go ahead and kind of agree with you here. Surely there's an ebb and flow to the season. The psychological effect of success and failure, and plain old luck, are part of the fluctuations within a season. It's also active factors though, like breakdowns in structured play and conversely adjustments to the team game.

To say it as if the team is a sail and "fluctuations" is the wind just seems so... fantasy hockey-ish to me.

Yeah, they should be crying and shouting at each other during warm ups. Then they would never lose.
- Feanor

they dont seem to have the intensity

I've always wanted one

- PhillySportsGuy

Next level food truck.

No it's not. It's something that can be controlled and fixed. Top teams don't have that issue. Hockey is not a difficult game to figure out. The coaches knew it and the players knew it, after the Florida game. But maybe Berube and the players should have explained it as just a general fluctuation, and no big deal, and just moved on to the next game as if it wasn't an issue.
- MJL

Coaches are irrelevant.

No it's not. It's something that can be controlled and fixed. Top teams don't have that issue. Hockey is not a difficult game to figure out. The coaches knew it and the players knew it, after the Florida game. But maybe Berube and the players should have explained it as just a general fluctuation, and no big deal, and just moved on to the next game as if it wasn't an issue.
- MJL

It's not an issue for them because they execute well due to their roster and such. This issue of "not showing up" has been going on for 3 years now on teams with different coaches. The "leadership group" is the same but it was also the same group in 2011-12. The one thing that has changed is the talent of the roster. You often cite last year's turn around as a plus for Berube. That was the same leadership core except Hartnell, who may have been considered a problem by the head coach.

Now they are missing their 3 top defensemen from last year as well as their first line winger and we're going to blame leadership? There's a much better, simpler explanation for their problems so I shall call forth Occam's razor.

Yeah, they should be crying and shouting at each other during warm ups. Then they would never lose.
- Feanor

If they had 20 Chris Pronger's, this would be happening.

Yeah, they should be crying and shouting at each other during warm ups. Then they would never lose.
- Feanor

No, but they do remind me of Team USA in Miracle right before Brooks skated them to death. When all theplayers were checking out women in the crowd.

AGAIN! AGAIN!

Bottom line is that this team RARELY comes out ready to play, and it has been going on for three or four SEASONS now.

It is baffling to me.

Totally unrelated football question:

The Eagles are in first place in their division even though they have the same amount of wins than the Cowboys, yet they have fewer losses. So, is it more wins or fewer losses that determine a division winner. Who would win in this (highly improbably) scenario:

Team A and Team B finish in first and second place in their division.

Team A finishes with a record of 9-5-2, with the 2 ties coming outside of the division.

Team B finishes with a 10-6 record.

Both finish with a 3-3 division record and the points scored between Team A and Team B is even.

Team B wins more games, but Team A has fewer losses. Just to clarify, Team B wins the division, correct?
- jmatchett383

Team B. It goes by wins

Yeah, they should be crying and shouting at each other during warm ups. Then they would never lose.
- Feanor

eff u, raffl !

I have seen the flyers many times in Sunrise and they usually are happy and joking with eachother during warm ups and looking at the fans in the stands. I get the feeling the team looks at the Florida triip as a vacation
- vejim

Trying to watch the body language of a professional athlete during a very small snapshot of time to determine their mindset is an exercise of projection.

Truth is, that body language and laughing stuff can mean anything you think it means. When people do this, they are likely just projecting their own hang ups on the athlete's actions because no one has really any idea what's going on in their heads.

I'm gonna go ahead and kind of agree with you here. Surely there's an ebb and flow to the season. The psychological effect of success and failure, and plain old luck, are part of the fluctuations within a season. It's also active factors though, like breakdowns in structured play and conversely adjustments to the team game.

To say it as if the team is a sail and "fluctuations" is the wind just seems so... fantasy hockey-ish to me.
- BulliesPhan87

What I mean by fluctuations is that sometimes they'll beat good teams and lose to bad ones but at the end of the day, they will be around .500.

The point I'm arguing is that leadership is too abstract of a concept to lay blame on, especially when the Flyers have tangible problems that could much more reasonably be the reason for their struggles. Leadership may play some role but it's marginal in the grand scheme of things, IMO.

If they had 20 Chris Pronger's, this would be happening.
- jmatchett383

If we had 20 Chris Prongers, we'd really only have 10 Chris Prongers, because half of the Chris Prongers would injure the other Chris Prongers in practice on some sort of dirty hit.

If we had 20 Chris Prongers, we'd really only have 10 Chris Prongers, because half of the Chris Prongers would injure the other Chris Prongers in practice on some sort of dirty hit.
- johndewar

Chris Pronger would never knowingly injure Chris Pronger for fear of retaliation from Chris Pronger.