You hit the nail on the head, sir I remember having an argument with Tuna99 once on here because he thinks Kessel isn't a winner just like Heatley. I was just kidding, put in the right situation alfie would have won a cup in his career same with a lot of guys
- ClarksonDavid

The exception being spatso's obvious rightness about Spezza not being a winner...

You put Spezza on any team - Junior B onwards - and they can't win a thing

A mix of good and odd comments concerning Alfie. People look too much at the present than the past. He'll always be remembered at the greatest and longest serving captain in franchise history. He will go down as the best player to ever dawn the uniform. This is all until or if someone surpasses him. His time in Detroit will be nothing more than one more extra sentence in his bio. The feud between the two sides will soon be a thing of the past. Other franchise players have ended their careers elsewhere and it did not hurt their overall legacy to the team. Guys like Madano, Sundin, and Koivu come to mind. The only thing that is missing is that nice send off during his final NHL game in Ottawa. Which may have not even actually of happened if he is forced to retire because of injury. Alfie's number will be indeed raised to the rafters one day and it will be just as special as if he stayed with the organization one extra season. This coming from a guy who was livid with the fact he would not end his career as a Sen.

I dont want to imagine a hockey world without Alfie. Can't see a return though after this much time away. Le sigh.

You hit the nail on the head, sir I remember having an argument with Tuna99 once on here because he thinks Kessel isn't a winner just like Heatley. I was just kidding, put in the right situation alfie would have won a cup in his career same with a lot of guys. Also, I think Toews is overrated, always have hes a great player sure but no where near Crosby, Stamkos, even Tavares.
- ClarksonDavid

There seems to be a lot of people who hate on Kesse, with that same argument.
Which I don't understand, he's a top line winger on any team in the league. Does it all, without a number one center.

I;d disagree on Toews, guy just does it all. I'd pick him 2nd or third if I was building a team right now. But he has the added benefit of having an excellent supporting cast.

i've never bought into the "a player is a winner" philosophy.

everyone talks about how toews is a winner.....and yes, he's won lots, and at many different levels.....but the guy has played on STACKED teams everywhere he's been.

his world jr and olympic teams were arguably the greatest teams (for their age) ever assembled. as for the hawks, you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who will argue that during their championship runs, weren't one of the best teams in the last 20-30 years.

players aren't "winners", teams are "winners" and players win because they're surrounded by other great players.
- sensarmy_11

Toews was NOT on the best World Junior team (the 05 team with Crosby, Carter, Bergeron, Perry, Getzlaf, Richards, Weber, Phaneuf and the rest). He was in the next two years, one where they really surprised a lot of people by winning in Vancouver('06), and then he was the best player on a team that wasn't a slam dunk to win it all, ('07). His semi-final shootout heroics was one of the clutch performances ever in that tournament.

The reason those teams were dominant is because the players "get it" and "have it". The core of that 2014 Olympic team (and to a lesser extent the '10 team) was made up of the '05 WJC team plus other key players like Toews and Price. There is a reason the same core group of players get picked for the team.

Players can be winners, and Toews is one of them. He is a primary reason why the teams he plays on are "stacked", because he is at the top of that stack. He is rarely the highest scorer or most skilled player on a team, but when the chips are down he would be the guy I would want in a winner takes all game.

To your point, yes, a player cannot win on his own at pretty much any level (look at Crosby vs London in the '05 Memorial Cup), but when you put groups of winners together, the team with more winners, win.

A mix of good and odd comments concerning Alfie. People look too much at the present than the past. He'll always be remembered at the greatest and longest serving captain in franchise history. He will go down as the best player to ever dawn the uniform. This is all until or if someone surpasses him. His time in Detroit will be nothing more than one more extra sentence in his bio. The feud between the two sides will soon be a thing of the past. Other franchise players have ended their careers elsewhere and it did not hurt their overall legacy to the team. Guys like Madano, Sundin, and Koivu come to mind. The only thing that is missing is that nice send off during his final NHL game in Ottawa. Which may have not even actually of happened if he is forced to retire because of injury. Alfie's number will be indeed raised to the rafters one day and it will be just as special as if he stayed with the organization one extra season. This coming from a guy who was livid with the fact he would not end his career as a Sen.
- Gord_Wilson_2.0

I'm not disagreeing with this in general, but I don't think Sundin's exit should be cited as an example of where a veteran player's legacy wasn't tarnished, in the fans' eyes at least.

There seems to be a lot of people who hate on Kesse, with that same argument.
Which I don't understand, he's a top line winger on any team in the league. Does it all, without a number one center.

I;d disagree on Toews, guy just does it all. I'd pick him 2nd or third if I was building a team right now. But he has the added benefit of having an excellent supporting cast.
- david22

That's fine I just don't see it with toews he's obviously good defensively but there's no way if he played on a team like Toronto he would get the same recognition because he would never of won a cup and they still would suck.

True. His number will go up.

That said, if he decided to stay here and negotiate with his team of forever years, his send off would be more than a hand shake and a "thanks for playing with the Red Wings for a season". They would've declared a day in his name and likely had a damn parade here. His legacy will forever be tarnished. All over 500k really.
- BodyCheckRadio

part of me thinks that they will do all that anyways.

You hit the nail on the head, sir I remember having an argument with Tuna99 once on here because he thinks Kessel isn't a winner just like Heatley. I was just kidding, put in the right situation alfie would have won a cup in his career same with a lot of guys. Also, I think Toews is overrated, always have hes a great player sure but no where near Crosby, Stamkos, even Tavares.
- ClarksonDavid

It depends on whether or not you think winning is a skill - I do, you don't. You think winning is a combination of elite players - i don't and teams that have been built through FA money (NYR, Flyers, Leafs etc) don't ever win.

Kessel, Heatley - these guys aren't there to win, they are there to make themselves happy by scoring and everything else comes second. Winners put winning first, everything else second.

Alfie is a winner because he gave it everything he had for 20 NHL years - he got his team to the final and they missed the playoffs 1 time in his tenure.

Kessel is a lazy player born with a gift to score - he isn't a winner because he doesn't try hard, he doesn't commit to winning, he doesn't play 200 foot hockey and he has zero leadership ability.

Winners are guys like Chelios, Pronger, Crosby, Toewes, Roy - people who don't get the ring every year but are always there and competing for it - and always ready to win.

That's fine I just don't see it with toews he's obviously good defensively but there's no way if he played on a team like Toronto he would get the same recognition because he would never of won a cup and they still would suck.
- ClarksonDavid

Couldn't the same thing be said about Crosby though?

He'd put up a tone of points sure.

It depends on whether or not you think winning is a skill - I do, you don't. You think winning is a combination of elite players - i don't and teams that have been built through FA money (NYR, Flyers, Leafs etc) don't ever win.

Kessel, Heatley - these guys aren't there to win, they are there to make themselves happy by scoring and everything else comes second. Winners put winning first, everything else second.

Alfie is a winner because he gave it everything he had for 20 NHL years - he got his team to the final and they missed the playoffs 1 time in his tenure.

Kessel is a lazy player born with a gift to score - he isn't a winner because he doesn't try hard, he doesn't commit to winning, he doesn't play 200 foot hockey and he has zero leadership ability.

Winners are guys like Chelios, Pronger, Crosby, Toewes, Roy - people who don't get the ring every year but are always there and competing for it - and always ready to win.
- tuna99

you must know Kessel on a personal level and he told you all this. Because I watched every leaf game since he's been her or at least 90% of them and I've never seen any of that. What I see is a guy who is visually upset when his team loses, wants to score cause he wants his team to win maybe? He makes every single player he plays with better. Did you know Winnik has 5 pts in 2 games with Kessel?
I like Winnik but come on. Leafs haven't lost a game when Kessel has recorded a point. keep hating Kessel though right, I know you think Bobby Ryan is better

Couldn't the same thing be said about Crosby though?

He'd put up a tone of points sure.
- david22

I doubt Toronto would of won a cup with Crosby but if healthy I wouldn't be suprised if he got them in the playoffs year in year out. Either way that's not my point because Crosby isn't said to be a great player because his leadership, it's because of his amazing skill ability that no one in the NHL can match. People look at Toews and say he's the best player in the NHL because he's good defensively, works really hard and is a leader.

Couldn't the same thing be said about Crosby though?

He'd put up a tone of points sure.
- david22

Don't think so. I think having Crosby would make Toronto a contender pretty quick... What is already a pretty good offence becomes turbo-charged... I mean, the defence would still be bad, I think they'd be about as good as Pittsburgh was the last few seasons (not exactly designed to win a Cup, but typically a top team in the conference)

Don't think so. I think having Crosby would make Toronto a contender pretty quick... What is already a pretty good offence becomes turbo-charged... I mean, the defence would still be bad, I think they'd be about as good as Pittsburgh was the last few seasons (not exactly designed to win a Cup, but typically a top team in the conference)
- Mr_Clean

Crosby centering the likes of JVR/Kessel would scare the poop out of me.

Toews was NOT on the best World Junior team (the 05 team with Crosby, Carter, Bergeron, Perry, Getzlaf, Richards, Weber, Phaneuf and the rest). He was in the next two years, one where they really surprised a lot of people by winning in Vancouver('06), and then he was the best player on a team that wasn't a slam dunk to win it all, ('07). His semi-final shootout heroics was one of the clutch performances ever in that tournament.

The reason those teams were dominant is because the players "get it" and "have it". The core of that 2014 Olympic team (and to a lesser extent the '10 team) was made up of the '05 WJC team plus other key players like Toews and Price. There is a reason the same core group of players get picked for the team.

Players can be winners, and Toews is one of them. He is a primary reason why the teams he plays on are "stacked", because he is at the top of that stack. He is rarely the highest scorer or most skilled player on a team, but when the chips are down he would be the guy I would want in a winner takes all game.

To your point, yes, a player cannot win on his own at pretty much any level (look at Crosby vs London in the '05 Memorial Cup), but when you put groups of winners together, the team with more winners, win.
- JaredCrozier

see, you say "winners" when in reality all you mean is "good players".

what happens if you have great players, like say tavares for example (world jr gold, olympic gold, poopty NHL team). you could make a convincing argument that he's a better player than toews, has won at all the same levels except the NHL (and that's cuz one plays on a stacked team, and one doesn't), but you never hear tavares talked about as being a "winner" like toews is.....what about eberle, subban, price, etc, etc, etc.

player A can be as good if not better than player B, but if player B has the advantage of playing on stacked teams, he'll always be viewed as a "winner" while player A won't.

it's a ridiculous way to look at a player.

Bolland has a cup ring and a wjc gold...is he more of a "winner" than guys like sundin, alfredsson, giroux, etc?

Crosby centering the likes of JVR/Kessel would scare the poop out of me.
- YzermanIsTheMan

Yeah, no offence to the wingers Crosby's had the past few years, but those guys would be a pretty significant upgrade.

Let's not think about it, it's making feel a bit queasy

Yeah, no offence to the wingers Crosby's had the past few years, but those guys would be a pretty significant upgrade.

Let's not think about it, it's making feel a bit queasy
- Mr_Clean

Yeah a little terrifying now that i thinka bout it

I doubt Toronto would of won a cup with Crosby but if healthy I wouldn't be suprised if he got them in the playoffs year in year out. Either way that's not my point because Crosby isn't said to be a great player because his leadership, it's because of his amazing skill ability that no one in the NHL can match. People look at Toews and say he's the best player in the NHL because he's good defensively, works really hard and is a leader.
- ClarksonDavid

Fair enough.

I think Toews would make the leafs a playoff team as well though. I think putting a number one center on that line.

I also think the other intangibles you mentioned would go a long way in helping the team.

you must know Kessel on a personal level and he told you all this. Because I watched every leaf game since he's been her or at least 90% of them and I've never seen any of that. What I see is a guy who is visually upset when his team loses, wants to score cause he wants his team to win maybe? He makes every single player he plays with better. Did you know Winnik has 5 pts in 2 games with Kessel?
I like Winnik but come on. Leafs haven't lost a game when Kessel has recorded a point. keep hating Kessel though right, I know you think Bobby Ryan is better
- ClarksonDavid

I don't know Phil Kessel, I am Phil Kessel

Give an example of Ovechkin vs. Patrice Bergeron - I think if they had a choice between the two players 75% of fans would pick Ovechkin to be on their team, I would pick Bergeron - Ovechkin will get you twice as many goals and points, score hilite reel stuff and sell tickets, but do nothing to help you win.

Bergeron will just be an efficient 2 way hockey player (maybe the best two way player in the league) and play every shift to win and to make his TEAM better, not just his stats. one has won - one hasn't.

One player put in the work and did all the things from his time as a teenager to learn to play winning hockey (D play, shut down play, faceoffs) the other invested his time on moves and 1 on 1 scoring and not taking the time to learn the game to play it to win.

Scoring is only 1 part of being a great player, Kessel is a great scorer, I just don't think he is a great player (or a great teammate for that matter, look up his photo on NHL.com and tell me this is the doube chin of a man that is committed to do his best)

Yeah a little terrifying now that i thinka bout it
- david22

Yeah, I think we can all agree that we're happy Crosby is not in our division right now, especially for the Leafs with the talent that winger group carries.

I don't know Phil Kessel, I am Phil Kessel

Give an example of Ovechkin vs. Patrice Bergeron - I think if they had a choice between the two players 75% of fans would pick Ovechkin to be on their team, I would pick Bergeron - Ovechkin will get you twice as many goals and points, score hilite reel stuff and sell tickets, but do nothing to help you win.

Bergeron will just be an efficient 2 way hockey player (maybe the best two way player in the league) and play every shift to win and to make his TEAM better, not just his stats. one has won - one hasn't.

One player put in the work and did all the things from his time as a teenager to learn to play winning hockey (D play, shut down play, faceoffs) the other invested his time on moves and 1 on 1 scoring and not taking the time to learn the game to play it to win.

Scoring is only 1 part of being a great player, Kessel is a great scorer, I just don't think he is a great player (or a great teammate for that matter, look up his photo on NHL.com and tell me this is the doube chin of a man that is committed to do his best)
- tuna99

Today I learned that scoring does not help teams win hockey games and also that the way someone looks makes him a worse player then he really is. Also learned you know for a fact that Kessel is a bad teammate when there's been reports he's well liked. Also if all Kessel cares about is scoring and getting paid why would he resign with the team he cant do this peacefully with? Because we all know he hates the media. If that's all he cared about he would of signed with a team like Arizona where he can go out and no one even knows him and the only thing people would come up to him on the streets for would be to see if he can do some plumbing for them.

I don't know Phil Kessel, I am Phil Kessel

Give an example of Ovechkin vs. Patrice Bergeron - I think if they had a choice between the two players 75% of fans would pick Ovechkin to be on their team, I would pick Bergeron - Ovechkin will get you twice as many goals and points, score hilite reel stuff and sell tickets, but do nothing to help you win.

Bergeron will just be an efficient 2 way hockey player (maybe the best two way player in the league) and play every shift to win and to make his TEAM better, not just his stats. one has won - one hasn't.

One player put in the work and did all the things from his time as a teenager to learn to play winning hockey (D play, shut down play, faceoffs) the other invested his time on moves and 1 on 1 scoring and not taking the time to learn the game to play it to win.

Scoring is only 1 part of being a great player, Kessel is a great scorer, I just don't think he is a great player (or a great teammate for that matter, look up his photo on NHL.com and tell me this is the doube chin of a man that is committed to do his best)
- tuna99

Actually, it feels like about 75% of hockey fans would take Bergeron at this point... By which I mean 75% of hockey fans over the age of 15.

I kinda feel like either would pretty great... either could thrive in the right system, either could win in the right system.

Yeah, I think we can all agree that we're happy Crosby is not in our division right now, especially for the Leafs with the talent that winger group carries.
- YzermanIsTheMan

Well, as much as I don't like Crosby on principle, that isn't true... I'd be fine with him on Ottawa

Today I learned that scoring does not help teams win hockey games and also that the way someone looks makes him a worse player then he really is. Also learned you know for a fact that Kessel is a bad teammate when there's been reports he's well liked. Also if all Kessel cares about is scoring and getting paid why would he resign with the team he cant do this peacefully with? Because we all know he hates the media. If that's all he cared about he would of signed with a team like Arizona where he can go out and no one even knows him and the only thing people would come up to him on the streets for would be to see if he can do some plumbing for them.
- ClarksonDavid

I;m glad you're learning so much, stick around, you may one day realize Kessel is American for Kesselov

And Kesslov couldn't have signed in Arizona because the coach would of asked him to play 2-way hockey and he doesn't want to do that, ir even know how.

Kesselov's weirdoness and his lack of off-season conditioning has been well covered in the media so this is not me on a campaign against Kesselov, this is Kessel showing up in Toronto 20 pounds overweight after he signs a huge deal and me saying "this guy can't be serious about winning"

it would be like if you showed up to work hung-over and without any of your notes, people might know you are talented but they would think - this guy is not ready to work at all. You might be able to pull some poop out of your ass because you are talented and get through the day, but eventually everyone catches on that you aren't taking it seriously and your true colours come through

Well, as much as I don't like Crosby on principle, that isn't true... I'd be fine with him on Ottawa
- Mr_Clean

It pains me extremely to agree and wouldn't mind the female dog over here in Detroit either. So hard to admit that.