There's so many variables involved, that we could discuss it forever. All shots taken from a certain distance are far from equal. How about an unscreened shot from 30 feet, versus a shot from 30 feet with traffic in front. Or how about a 30 foot shot with the goalie stationary, versus a 30 foot shot where the goalie is moving from side to side? Or how about a 30 foot shot from Tomas Kopecky versus Steven Stamkos? It's crazy how some of the stat heads get fooled into thinking there is any value in some of this stuff. It's like they can't analyze anything in the game without a stat behind it.

I'm waiting for times to start being compiled on how fast the backup goalie opens and closes the bench door, in relation to shots against due to faster line changes.
- MJL

You don't think it has any value? None whatsoever?

I don't think it's a valuable tool at all personally. Even for just comparative reasons. Far too many variables involved to look at a stat like that and come to any kind of accurate conclusion.
- MJL

It's one of a few tools that would have to be used if you can't watch and analyze every game. It shouldn't decide who's good and who's not but in tandem with other stats plus eye witness analysis of others (although that is even more subjective so make sure they are well accepted in the biz), it can help give people a picture of a player and how he's performing from afar.

You have to wonder if heart is still in it, or is he just going thru the motions to collect the paycheck. I don't know, maybe the injuries have made him play too cautiously? He just seems to be taking up space out there
- BiggE

I'd hope his heart is still in in, but...I don't know, he just has not looked good to me.

I don't really get what happened to Umberger. I mean, he was never a speedster or sniper, but I expected a little bit more. He just looks so slow and lost out there, like a bigger, smarter Steve Downie.
- jmatchett383

I can understand being is a scoring slump, if the puck isn't going in the net. That tends to even out. But he's not even generating chances or shots. And if you're going to be a defensive checking player without much offense. Can't be easily knocked off the puck leading to a goal against in the Colorado game. Or fail to an extra half stride leading to an unnecessary icing. Not sure how long they can go before demoting him to the 4th line.

It's one of a few tools that would have to be used if you can't watch and analyze every game. It shouldn't decide who's good and who's not but in tandem with other stats plus eye witness analysis of others (although that is even more subjective so make sure they are well accepted in the biz), it can help give people a picture of a player and how he's performing from afar.
- NickTheKid87

I don't think it can help. It's just statistical babble.

You don't think it has any value? None whatsoever?
- jmatchett383

In this specific case, none. Garbage in, garbage out.

I'd hope his heart is still in in, but...I don't know, he just has not looked good to me.
- jmatchett383

Has he not at least played good defense?

I don't think it can help. It's just statistical babble.
- MJL

It's more in depth than save percentage alone at least.

In this specific case, none. Garbage in, garbage out.
- MJL

I don't think it's close to a be-all/end-all stat, but it can provide a general overview given a large enough sample. Yes, factors like movement/screens/"puck luck"/shooter/etc. play a huge role, but it can still provide a general glimpse into a player on a general scale.

Has he not at least played good defense?
- GOA88

Depending on your definition of "good," I don't. He's been less than advertised, for sure. He hasn't really been bad defensively, but he hasn't really been largely above average either.

And, even when he does make a nice defensive play, he's prone to giving the puck back up because he's not doing anything productive with the puck, so it's a wash.

It's more in depth than save percentage alone at least.
- NickTheKid87

I tend to look at shutouts and nothing else to draw my conclusions.

I don't think it's close to a be-all/end-all stat, but it can provide a general overview given a large enough sample. Yes, factors like movement/screens/"puck luck"/shooter/etc. play a huge role, but it can still provide a general glimpse into a player on a general scale.
- jmatchett383

I don't think that it can, not even close. Too many variables. The data is based on shot distance. That is far from an accurate metric to judge shot quality.

I tend to look at shutouts and nothing else.
- jmatchett383

I use wins, personally. And sometimes mask design. Actually, always mask design.

Has he not at least played good defense?
- GOA88

For the most part, he has. But when you have a 4.6M cap hit, and you are just giving defensive play to the team. Better be dam near perfect. In his case, his mistakes are going to be magnified. And rightfully so.

For the most part, he has. But when you have a 4.6M cap hit, and you are just giving defensive play to the team. Better be dam near perfect. In his case, his mistakes are going to be magnified. And rightfully so.
- MJL

Listen I agree with everything. He has not been nearly good enough. At all. Put the cap number aside and I still would not be happy with him on the roster at this point. After all his 4.6 mill cap hit is not his fault. Thats the Flyers fault for adding him on with that number.

Listen I agree with everything. He has not been nearly good enough. At all. Put the cap number aside and I still would not be happy with him on the roster at this point. After all his 4.6 mill cap hit is not his fault. Thats the Flyers fault for adding him on with that number.
- GOA88

I understand that, but just like in life, things are not always fair. If he doesn't improve, he's going to be a target.

Are we sure he ever got up from this???

- GOA88

Out of curiosity, how many games would Campbell be suspended if he hit someone like this now?

It was almost certainly a headshot.

I understand that, but just like in life, things are not always fair. If he doesn't improve, he's going to be a target.
- MJL

Well play him with Giroux and Voracek so we can get our moneys worth. He'll at least flirt with 20 goals IMO.

Post-Practice Updates


Giroux noted that he's actually playing with two players on their off-wing -- the lefthanded shooting Voracek on right wing plus Simmonds -- which is not the norm. The Flyers captain said that one of the benefits of having multiple practice days before the next game is for Simmonds and the line to work together. Giroux, who admitted that he hates long schedule breaks, said that he especially enjoys playing with Simmonds and Voracek because he considers both close friends.

- bmeltzer

(frank) you, Raff

I don't think that it can, not even close. Too many variables. The data is based on shot distance. That is far from an accurate metric to judge shot quality.
- MJL

So, in general, you'll argue that a 30-foot shot and a 6-foot shot are equally difficult to stop? I mean, I get what you're saying, and agree to an extent, but any stat is based on a principle that, over a large enough sample, each player sees more or less the same difficulty. This assumption is flawed itself to an extent, and I don't think anyone will argue that. However, there is no stat available that can accurately account for the actions of every player on the ice, their respective positions, the quality of the ice, the temperature of the puck, the quality of the stick blade, the position of every player as well as their skill level, etc.

Out of curiosity, how many games would Campbell be suspended if he hit someone like this now?

It was almost certainly a headshot.
- johndewar

Maybe none. It was obviously a disgusting play Campbell, just like Scott Stevens' hits but he didnt leave his feet or raise his shoulder or elbow to make contact. He just sorta followed thru.

Maybe none. It was obviously a disgusting play Campbell, just like Scott Stevens' hits but he didnt leave his feet or raise his shoulder or elbow to make contact. He just sorta followed thru.
- GOA88

But he targetted the head, no?

So, in general, you'll argue that a 30-foot shot and a 6-foot shot are equally difficult to stop? I mean, I get what you're saying, and agree to an extent, but any stat is based on a principle that, over a large enough sample, each player sees more or less the same difficulty. This assumption is flawed itself to an extent, and I don't think anyone will argue that. However, there is no stat available that can accurately account for the actions of every player on the ice, their respective positions, the quality of the ice, the temperature of the puck, the quality of the stick blade, the position of every player as well as their skill level, etc.
- jmatchett383

If you think that in general I'll argue that a 30 foot shot and a 6 foot shot are equally difficult to stop, then you aren't understanding my point.

But he targetted the head, no?
- johndewar

Probably.... but there is no real evidence to suggest that was his intent. You could say that Umberger had his head down and that kept Campbell from driving his shoulder into his chest. Either way.... I think its pretty clear Campbell went into that hit hoping to hurt Umby.

Listen I agree with everything. He has not been nearly good enough. At all. Put the cap number aside and I still would not be happy with him on the roster at this point. After all his 4.6 mill cap hit is not his fault. Thats the Flyers fault for adding him on with that number.
- GOA88

Who cares whose fault it is? The bottom line is, he has to play better, because he's been playing pretty poorly. Outside of the Boston game, and the Pittsburgh game, he's actually been awful.

He's been tried with different linemates, and he's had little or no success with any of them.