Bill Meltzer: Meltzer's Musings: Habs Double Up Flyers, Phantoms, Prospects, Quick Hits

Imo brind'amour should get in before leclair.

Hey Bill,

What is the Flyers impression regarding the growth of Couturier as a player? It's obvious he hasn't been very good to start the season, but over all are they at all frustrated?

Hey Bill,

What is the Flyers impression regarding the growth of Couturier as a player? It's obvious he hasn't been very good to start the season, but over all are they at all frustrated?
- landros 2

should trade him to MTL

Hey Bill,

What is the Flyers impression regarding the growth of Couturier as a player? It's obvious he hasn't been very good to start the season, but over all are they at all frustrated?
- landros 2

He has been OK. Not great, not terrible. They still want to see him go to the net more, but the bigger concerns have been with Read, Umberger, Lecavalier (not necessarily in that order).

Prior to last night's line changes, Couturier had been playing pretty well with Schenn and starting to develop some chemistry.

He has been OK. Not great, not terrible. They still want to see him go to the net more, but the bigger concerns have been with Read, Umberger, Lecavalier (not necessarily in that order).

Prior to last night's line changes, Couturier had been playing pretty well with Schenn and starting to develop some chemistry.
- bmeltzer

I do wonder why there seems to be such a reluctance to break Read and Couturier up as a tandem? Umberger has been a disappointment for sure....Can't say I'm shocked with Vinny....after a summer of trying to move him out, he looks and plays like he is already gone.....

Hey Bill. I have seen these problems time, and time again. Ever since Richards took over the C, this has been a trend, in my opinion. I really think that the Flyers have been guilty of letting players come up too early, and they lack the mental discipline to create a consistently winning team. Also, the team has lacked a mature leader for the team. Just bring in a vet, or letting someone wear the C doesn't mean that there is leadership. I think after we picked up Pronger, he was the true leader that the team needed. After he went down, nobody filled the void. We have been a .500 team for the longest time, and yet we continue to bring up guys too quickly, and pay them billions of dollars for a long term deal. What you get is immature players who make too much money, and can take shifts, and even nights off because they are signed for the long term. I base my opinions on the lazy forwards. The last few games they have been watching the puck, and stopped moving their skates. I also think it's time to part ways with Coby. He looks so lost on the ice if he isn't skating north, and south. He can't move side to side, and makes poor decisions. He works hard in the corners, but just can't clear the paint. It's time to get something in return for him. Anyway, I wish Chief luck with this group of guys. He seems to recognize what is wrong, but the players just don't seem to care. If they did, they would have shown up for camp in shape with Lavy, and would bother to play a full game. Anyway, thanks for listening.

He has been OK. Not great, not terrible. They still want to see him go to the net more, but the bigger concerns have been with Read, Umberger, Lecavalier (not necessarily in that order).

Prior to last night's line changes, Couturier had been playing pretty well with Schenn and starting to develop some chemistry.
- bmeltzer

Lecavalier getting so many chances last night is a very good sign. He needs to do a better job with either shot selection, or in getting the puck through. But that's better then not getting chances or generating shots. If he keeps getting chances, he's going to make his fair share of plays. Umberger even had a couple of chances.

As far as the PK, I think pointing out the cautiousness and passive play hits the nail on the head. It's a sign of a lack of confidence. They need to do a better job of attacking the puck, and bearing down on clears. The more time and space you give a team on the PP, the more opportunity they get for fortunate bounces such as right on the stick of Parenteau for a rebound goal. And passing lanes are too open. Del Zotto failed to protect the back door, and an easy cross ice pass was made right in front of the net for an open net for Subban. Coburn caught in no man's land on one goal.

I do wonder why there seems to be such a reluctance to break Read and Couturier up as a tandem? Umberger has been a disappointment for sure....Can't say I'm shocked with Vinny....after a summer of trying to move him out, he looks and plays like he is already gone.....
- landros 2

Probably because both Read and Couturier have been a strong tandem both at ES and on the PK for about 3 seasons now.

A player that is already gone, doesn't get the chances that Lecavalier had last night.

Probably because both Read and Couturier have been a strong tandem both at ES and on the PK for about 3 seasons now.

A player that is already gone, doesn't get the chances that Lecavalier had last night.
- MJL

I get it ....you like Vinny......I don't....I see a guy that has checked out.....you see a guy that is close to breaking out .....and I wouldn't advocate splitting up Read and Couturier for good, but they have not been very good this year.....Why not try it ?

Flyers just aren't a very good team this year, but they aren't bad enough - short of more injuries - to get a top pick in 2015. That's a crappy spot to be in.

Offensively, they have 2 playmakers on the team and a bunch of other guys who have to work very hard to create anything, and often don't unless on the PP or on the top line.

Defensively they're missing that #1 guy to anchor everything. (Boston's getting a taste of what it's like without that top player.)

I think the goalies are good enough to win, even steal some games, when they get solid team D in front of them.

I'm in no way impressed with Berube as a head coach.

I get it ....you like Vinny......I don't....I see a guy that has checked out.....you see a guy that is close to breaking out .....and I wouldn't advocate splitting up Read and Couturier for good, but they have not been very good this year.....Why not try it ?
- landros 2

Vinny is what he is at this point in his career, and that's an average/slightly above average player. Maybe he isn't being used properly, maybe he doesn't have the right linemates, maybe he's still hurt...or maybe his game has just dropped off the cliff like Gagne's. Whatever the reason, he's not getting it done.

Bill Meltzer: Meltzer's Musings: Habs Double Up Flyers, Phantoms, Prospects, Quick Hits
- bmeltzer

Vinny has become borderline unbearable to watch for me. He's just not a very good hockey player anymore. I think the injuries have finally broken him down as a player to the point where he simply can't be relied on for consistent, top-6 production. The key word in that sentence is CONSISTENT.

He either looks less than 100%, or has games like last night where he's gripping the stick a little too hard. The issue, with me anyway, is he's not very fleet of foot; the times where he's not playing well seem to be exemplified because of this. If Vinny isn't making his mark on the score sheet, he's just not very useful anymore. And my god, is he awful at playing wing.

I get it ....you like Vinny......I don't....I see a guy that has checked out.....you see a guy that is close to breaking out .....and I wouldn't advocate splitting up Read and Couturier for good, but they have not been very good this year.....Why not try it ?
- landros 2

I don't see a guy breaking out. I see a player that is what he is at this point. And that's a player still capable of producing offense. Still capable of making plays with the puck. He's no longer a catalyst, or a player that can carry a line.

As far as breaking up Read and Couturier. I would not be against it. I'm just giving an opinion on why Berube would be reluctant to break that tandem up.

Lecavalier getting so many chances last night is a very good sign. He needs to do a better job with either shot selection, or in getting the puck through. But that's better then not getting chances or generating shots. If he keeps getting chances, he's going to make his fair share of plays. Umberger even had a couple of chances.

- MJL

I definitely disagree. Absolutely nothing about his game was good last night IMO. Just because a player get's 12 shots off doesn't mean he had a good night. Even then, that's Vinnys bread and butter: offense. If he's playing good hockey game in and game out, stats like this should be around the minimum of what we expect.

Like I said, maybe the fact that he doesn't really contribute heavily in any other area exemplifies his struggles and I'm over-reacting a bit. But there's absolutely nothing exciting about 1 of 12 shots hitting the net from a shoot first player. Anybody can take 11 bad shots in 1 game.

Vinny has become borderline unbearable to watch for me. He's just not a very good hockey player anymore. I think the injuries have finally broken him down as a player to the point where he simply can't be relied on for consistent, top-6 production. The key word in that sentence is CONSISTENT.

He either looks less than 100%, or has games like last night where he's gripping the stick a little too hard. The issue, with me anyway, is he's not very fleet of foot; the times where he's not playing well seem to be exemplified because of this. If Vinny isn't making his mark on the score sheet, he's just not very useful anymore. And my god, is he awful at playing wing.
- mochoson

He's not awful at playing RW. He's an average skater that is strictly an offensive player. What I know is that if Lecavalier keeps getting chances like he did last night, quite a few pucks are going to go in the net. He needs a play maker on his line. And with Bellemare moved up, that line looks a lot better.

I definitely disagree. Absolutely nothing about his game was good last night IMO. Just because a player get's 12 shots off doesn't mean he had a good night. Even then, that's Vinnys bread and butter: offense. If he's playing good hockey game in and game out, stats like this should be around the minimum of what we expect.

Like I said, maybe the fact that he doesn't really contribute heavily in any other area exemplifies his struggles and I'm over-reacting a bit. But there's absolutely nothing exciting about 1 of 12 shots hitting the net from a shoot first player. Anybody can take 11 bad shots in 1 game.
- mochoson

So you think there isn't a difference between a game where a player gets one shot, versus where he's more involved in the offensive zone, to the point where he's attempting 12 shots? That isn't a good sign that the player, who is an offensive player, was way more involved offensively?
As I said in a previous post, he needs to do a better job with either shot selection, or getting the puck on net. But that he was that involved offensively, compared to the previous game, is definitely a good sign.

So you think there isn't a difference between a game where a player gets one shot, versus where he's more involved in the offensive zone, to the point where he's attempting 12 shots? That isn't a good sign that the player, who is an offensive player, was way more involved offensively?
- MJL

12 shots doesn't mean you were "involved" in the offensive zone. That could be 12 bad angle shots off the rush that either miss the net (which we know can wheel around the boards and end up immediately out of the zone as quickly as it entered) or is easily saved. Shot volume isn't necessarily indicative of anything.

If the player with 1 shot is playing better overall hockey in all 3 zones, than yes. I'll take the player who's making good reads and is always in the right spot to make a play who may only get 1 good look at the net then the guy who's just shooting the puck for the sake of doing so.

As I said in a previous post, he needs to do a better job with either shot selection, or getting the puck on net. But that he was that involved offensively, compared to the previous game, is definitely a good sign.

These two things are synonymous. What you're basically saying is Vinny needs to pick his spots better, and I couldn't agree more.

I think they miss Raffl a lot.
Without him they are close to being a one line team as Bill mentioned.
He was able to play effectively on the top line. He also is good on the PK and they miss that badly.

BSchenn and Couts had signs of some chemistry and maybe could provide secondary scoring after the first line.

Bellemare at center also could be another decent line with the right wingers.

I truly love Simmonds but he struggles at times in even strength play.
He did not look comfortable playing LW at all.

I am more worried then encouraged by VLC at this point.
I think they need to do whatever they can to move on from him.
It may include eating some salary or throwing in a mid round pick or prospect to get another team to take him. Maybe I'm wrong and they stick it out, but it's painful to watch right now.

http://flyers.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=739417

12 shots doesn't mean you were "involved" in the offensive zone. That could be 12 bad angle shots off the rush that either miss the net (which we know can wheel around the boards and end up immediately out of the zone as quickly as it entered) or is easily saved. Shot volume isn't necessarily indicative of anything.

If the player with 1 shot is playing better overall hockey in all 3 zones, than yes. I'll take the player who's making good reads and is always in the right spot to make a play who may only get 1 good look at the net then the guy who's just shooting the puck for the sake of doing s





These two things are synonymous. What you're basically saying is Vinny needs to pick his spots better, and I couldn't agree more.
- mochoson

Shot volume is absolutely an indicator of being involved offensively. And attempting 12 shots versus attempting 1 shot, is absolutely being more involved offensively.

VLC is an aging, broken down shell of what he was in his heyday. He has clearly lost a step and plays no physical game whatsoever.

Umberger is a 4th liner at best at this point in his career

VDV has no business taking a regular shift in the NHL

Rinaldo is a 12/13 guy who should not dress on a consistent basis

Akeson is a quality AHL player but a borderline NHL player

As long as 5 of our 12 starting forwards are the men listed above, we will struggle to win games. When you add that to a D group lacking top pair talent, you get a lottery team. This is not being negative, it's simply being realistic. It doesn't matter that VLC has 400+ career goals or that Umberger was once a good player. All that matters are what they are today.

Bill Meltzer: Meltzer's Musings: Habs Double Up Flyers, Phantoms, Prospects, Quick Hits
- bmeltzer

I think what they need to do with Vinny is get him with a couple guys who have speed & can get him the puck(Bellemare, Akeson, Raffl when he return) and let Vinny just be the shooter. That's pretty much what he is now.

Of course that's what they try to do on the power play & it's not real effective there, either

I think they miss Raffl a lot.
Without him they are close to being a one line team as Bill mentioned.
He was able to play effectively on the top line. He also is good on the PK and they miss that badly.

BSchenn and Couts had signs of some chemistry and maybe could provide secondary scoring after the first line.

Bellemare at center also could be another decent line with the right wingers.

I truly love Simmonds but he struggles at times in even strength play.
He did not look comfortable playing LW at all.

I am more worried then encouraged by VLC at this point.
I think they need to do whatever they can to move on from him.
It may include eating some salary or throwing in a mid round pick or prospect to get another team to take him. Maybe I'm wrong and they stick it out, but it's painful to watch right now.
- Marc D

What they need to do to move on from Lecavalier is for Lecavalier to get better offensively. And last night was a start. If he keeps getting that amount of chances in a game, he's going to make plays.
The Flyers are struggling to find the right mix, if it is even possible. A line with Lecavalier, Umberger, and a player like Vandevelde, isn't going to work. I don't even see it working with Simmonds there. They need a playmaker.
I don't think Simmonds looks good at LW either. He has also been struggling lately. He needs to play the right side, and needs a playmaker to get the puck too him.