I wasn't meaning just Engylland. The guys they have all play hard and compete without having true superstars. Yes the d is solid but they come to be a team that works hard every game. an identity.
- J35Bacher

Engelland is the only guy I remember people making fun of, though.

Also lets look at what wingers they play with compared to what Couturier is playing with. That will also help numbers.
- J35Bacher

Couts is nowhere near the level of those players. c'mon man.....

That (frank)ing stupid sign...
I think it is all about the Hartnell trade, sending a message.

The Chief I think hated Hartnell's attitude.

Stupid locker room power struggle.

Maybe if they weren't in such a rush to dump Hartnell they could of shopped around for a better return.

Infuriating really.
- Marc D

The Hartnell deal definitely had that feeling. The player, himself, feels that way.

And I'm not saying Berube is lying about his input. Like, I doubt he went into Hexy's office, flipped over the desk, and demanded Hartnell get shipped out. But I do think he provided negative feedback to Hextall about how he feels about Hartnell.

Something i was thinking about is so many people made fun of the Flames for signing some of the guys they did. But one thing is they play hard and have an identity. Right now they sit 3rd in a tough division
- J35Bacher

They had a hot start last year if I remember right. I'd be surprised if they turn out to be close to last year's Avalanche

He does have wingers. They have tried numerous options with him. Even Voracek a couple years ago. It doesnt work. Not good enough for 2nd line scoring center anyways. He is a 3rd line center in my book.
- GOA88

A couple years ago Voracek wasn't playing as well as he is now. Read isn't playing well and he also gets hand me downs from other lines this year.

When he had Schenn that line was very good. So maybe instead of trading a solid two way forward we try to build up that line.

Couturier starts 34.7% of his shifts in the offensive zone, faces the 4th highest quality of competition only behind AMac, Raffl and Read respectively, averages 2:25 of ice time per game on the PK, the most of any forward and 8 points in 17 games (1 on the powerplay, 7 at ES).

To put that in perspective, Lecavalier starts 61.4% of his shifts in the offensive zone, faces the 2nd weakest QoC of any player (behind only Akeson) and averages 2:80 of PP time per game (Couturier averages 1:89). VLC has 5 points in 10 games, 3 of which have come on the PP.

Brayden Schenn starts 61.2% of his shifts in the o-zone, faces the 5th easiest QoC of forwards (behind Akeson, VLC, Rinaldo & PEB), averages 2:84 on the PP and has 13 points in 17 games, 3 of which have come on the PP).

So at ES, Schenn has 10 points, Couturier 7 and Lecavalier 2. If Couturier could get more offensive zone starts against lesser competition, he'd put up more points.
- NickTheKid87

Very nice breakdown. I didn't realize Vinny only had 2 ESP... in 117 minutes.

That's absurd in my opinion. I guarantee that it had zero to do with it.
- MJL

Yeah, Hextall doesn't seem the machiavellian type to perfectly time a rant for a marketing opportunity.

He saw his team get skated and run out of the rink and wanted to...um....share his feelings. I doubt there was more to it than that.

Couts is nowhere near the level of those players. c'mon man.....
- GOA88

I wasn't saying Couturier is Kopitar, Backes or any of the others. But they also play with wingers capable of putting up numbers as well. I am saying Couturier cn't do it alone.

Also lets look at what wingers they play with compared to what Couturier is playing with. That will also help numbers.
- J35Bacher

Couturier: Read and Umberger
Bergeron: Reilly Smith and Marchand
Kopitar: Gaborik and Williams
Backes; TJ Oshie (Pietrangelo is the second linemate and Bouwmeester the 3rd so I'm assuming that means they've mixed and matched his LW).

Obviously Bergeron, Kopitar and Backes are going to out produce Couts but currently, they aren't or not doing it by much (in Bergeron's case). They're all in similar situations but with more talented linemates as well.

I wanted raymond. I thought he would look nice with Couturier
- J35Bacher

Precisely.

They had a hot start last year if I remember right. I'd be surprised if they turn out to be close to last year's Avalanche
- Just5

I don't know how they will finish. I am more stating the point is the team plays with an identity nightly. They play tough, competitive hockey. And they do it without a true susperstar.

Very nice breakdown. I didn't realize Vinny only had 2 ESP... in 117 minutes.
- Feanor

Like Tomahawk corrected, he really has 1 because 1 came on an empty netter.

The Hartnell deal definitely had that feeling. The player, himself, feels that way.

And I'm not saying Berube is lying about his input. Like, I doubt he went into Hexy's office, flipped over the desk, and demanded Hartnell get shipped out. But I do think he provided negative feedback to Hextall about how he feels about Hartnell.
- johndewar

There is definitely a culture change happening in the organization. It's difficult to expect this team to play really good hockey given the direction they've taken.

It's going to take time. It's going to take years of rooting out cancer and injecting the lineup with the Raffls and Bellemares of the hockey world. Guys that play hard on the puck in all zones of the ice. Once this lineup can dress all lines of guys that play a hard game like that all the questions of team toughness, leadership issues, and pride and all that blah blah blah will go out the window.

No one has the time or patience. The 2014-15 flyers should roll off your back, let it.

Are you talking about the Vinny Lecavalier that was demoted to the 4th line last year?
- MJL

Yup, the same one that never misses a PP shift and is always shifted up in late-game situations regardless of how poopty he's played at ES, how many times he's thrown the puck around blindly in the NZ, and how many board battles he loses.

That's conventional wisdom, but I kind of doubt its validity.

Player turnover is pretty crazy -- for example, G, Coburn and Emery are the only current players who are left over from Lavi's first year -- I'm not sure the message even has a chance to get stale.
- Tomahawk

In Flyerdom, coaches and players don't normally hang around long enough for a message to become stale

Like Tomahawk corrected, he really has 1 because 1 came on an empty netter.
- NickTheKid87

Thank you.

It's almost a quarter of the season, but it's actually less then 1/5th of the season. Berube turned the team around last year, and led them to a strong record over the period of the season when he took over. He deserves some more time to try and get it turned around in my opinion.
- MJL

I don't see him taking the team to the next level, but Id be happy to be wrong about that

Lead story on hockey central at noon on Sportsnet...Hextall freaking out at the team.. haha

Couturier: Read and Umberger
Bergeron: Reilly Smith and Marchand
Kopitar: Gaborik and Williams
Backes; TJ Oshie (Pietrangelo is the second linemate and Bouwmeester the 3rd so I'm assuming that means they've mixed and matched his LW).

Obviously Bergeron, Kopitar and Backes are going to out produce Couts but currently, they aren't or not doing it by much (in Bergeron's case). They're all in similar situations but with more talented linemates as well.
- NickTheKid87

I think trading Couturier would be a mistake. We wanted to move Schenn too but now in a good position is he paying the Flyers back. We love to revist the Patrick Sharp trade but Couturier isn't a one man show so lets move him

Lead story on hockey central at noon on Sportsnet...Hextall freaking out at the team.. haha
- Hextall271

I love how this is even a story.. lol If nobody would have been around to hear it, it would be business as usual.

I think trading Couturier would be a mistake. We wanted to move Schenn too but now in a good position is he paying the Flyers back. We love to revist the Patrick Sharp trade but Couturier isn't a one man show so lets move him
- J35Bacher

I agree. Even if he only ever tops out at 40 odd points, that's still good for a legit Selke contender. Luckily, Couturier doesn't need to produce 60-70 points to be valuable, that would just be a nice addition. He could easily have a similar career to Jordan Staal (hopefully minus the injuries) and I wouldn't complain at all.

ES minutes/ES Points = Minutes per ESP

Voracek 256/18 = 14.22
Raffl 155/7 = 22.14
BSchenn 238/10 = 23.08
Giroux 289/12 = 24.08
VandeVelde 105/3 = 35
Couturier 253/7 = 36.14
Simmonds 235/5 = 47
Bellemare 189/4 = 47.25
Read 239/5 = 47.8
Lecavalier 117/2 = 58.5
Umberger 205/3 = 68.33
Rinaldo 120/1 = 120

I think trading Couturier would be a mistake. We wanted to move Schenn too but now in a good position is he paying the Flyers back. We love to revist the Patrick Sharp trade but Couturier isn't a one man show so lets move him
- J35Bacher

I don't want to see the organization give up on Coots either, but i don't think he has the offensive prowess/potential that many posters in here believe he possess. Yes, he lit up juniors, but there are tons of players that do and then don't in the NHL. Whether it is due to the lack of support on his line (though when Read is his usual self he is more than adequate), too focused on the defensive side of things or just insufficient finishing ability, I really can't put my finger on it.

I don't want to see the organization give up on Coots either, but i don't think he has the offensive prowess/potential that many posters in here believe he possess. Yes, he lit up juniors, but there are tons of players that do and then don't in the NHL. Whether it is due to the lack of support on his line (though when Read is his usual self he is more than adequate), too focused on the defensive side of things or just insufficient finishing ability, I really can't put my finger on it.
- aantny88

I think most people expect him to be a 25-30-55 player on average in his prime years and that's reasonable. It's possible that he could hit 60+ points once or twice but I don't think it will be the norm, which is fine because we already know he's an elite defensive forward so 50+ points would be swell.

I don't want to see the organization give up on Coots either, but i don't think he has the offensive prowess/potential that many posters in here believe he possess. Yes, he lit up juniors, but there are tons of players that do and then don't in the NHL. Whether it is due to the lack of support on his line (though when Read is his usual self he is more than adequate), too focused on the defensive side of things or just insufficient finishing ability, I really can't put my finger on it.
- aantny88

I would rather provide him some legit wingers before I think it is time to move him. Just like Schenn needed to be put into the right situation. He is now producing. Let Hextall build this team. We all knew it wasn't a quick fix.