Or maybe he's being asked to fill a role that he isn't capable of filling, which means he's not able to fully engage.
- jmatchett383

That is bullpoop. I don't like my role so I am going to half ass this puck battle along the wall. I don't like my role so I'm going to glide back on defense. My line mates aren't good enough for me so I am going to make less of an effort to do the right things on the ice.

All of these things he would and should be doing regardless of his role.

The Flyers do also. They need a playmaker that can get the puck to a player like Simmonds, so he can be more effective offensively. And the Flyers can get a consistent 2nd line offensively. But the biggest issues with this team is the inconsistency of intensity, blown defensive coverages by individual players. And the PK. I'm not happy with Umberger and he's been a bust to this point. So instead of spouting out hyperbole and saying that Umberger can't do anything. Look at see at how they can best deploy the current personnel. And that's moving Umberger to the 4th line when Raffl is ready to play.
And I disagree entirely that the Flyers playoff fate rides on how well the 4th line plays, and Umberger in particular. There's a host of issues I would place ahead of Umberger and the 4th line, when assessing the Flyers chances of making the playoffs.
- MJL

First of all, as you noted, you clearly know they need another forward, an offensive player, to help this team at even strength. Whether that player scores the goals or helps Simmonds do it, they need one. Becuase the biggest reason they are sixth in the league in scoring is their No. 4 -ranked power play and the dominance Giroux and Voracek have shown.

In the Flyers' last five games, they have scored 12 goals, getting shutout once.. Giroux and Voracek have scored or assisted on nine of them.

It's not hyperbole to say that this team can improve its chances of making the playoffs by inserting better players than Umberger and Rinaldo in the lineup. No one is saying that the fourth line is the only problem this team has, and it has been acknowledged by many that Raffl's return will help.

But that is my point, and i reiterate: Giroux and Voracek are covering up a multitude of sins on this team. Quoting how many goals they have scored as a team without providing context doesn't move this conversation along, or prove your point.

It proves mine, because if they lose the deadweight in the lineup, they will likely improve and be able to better withstand the inevitable slowing of production that Giroux and Voracek will endure, since both of them are on pace for 105-plus points, which would be career-highs for both, and for Voracek by 30 points.

Good god..did anyone just see that touchdown catch in the Giants vs Cowboys game?
It might be the best catch ever.

Good god..did anyone just see that touchdown catch in the Giants vs Cowboys game?
It might be the best catch ever.
- opeth_pa

That was pretty amazing.

Good god..did anyone just see that touchdown catch in the Giants vs Cowboys game?
It might be the best catch ever.
- opeth_pa

unreal.

Good god..did anyone just see that touchdown catch in the Giants vs Cowboys game?
It might be the best catch ever.
- opeth_pa

I still can't comprehend it. No joke.

I still can't comprehend it. No joke.
- Giroux_Is_God

it literally looked fake. like it was edited or something.

That is bullpoop. I don't like my role so I am going to half ass this puck battle along the wall. I don't like my role so I'm going to glide back on defense. My line mates aren't good enough for me so I am going to make less of an effort to do the right things on the ice.

All of these things he would and should be doing regardless of his role.
- MBFlyerfan

Whether a player is on the wing on the first line, or the 4th line. He has to be able to do those things.

First of all, as you noted, you clearly know they need another forward, an offensive player, to help this team at even strength. Whether that player scores the goals or helps Simmonds do it, they need one. Becuase the biggest reason they are sixth in the league in scoring is their No. 4 -ranked power play and the dominance Giroux and Voracek have shown.

In the Flyers' last five games, they have scored 12 goals, getting shutout once.. Giroux and Voracek have scored or assisted on nine of them.

It's not hyperbole to say that this team can improve its chances of making the playoffs by inserting better players than Umberger and Rinaldo in the lineup. No one is saying that the fourth line is the only problem this team has, and it has been acknowledged by many that Raffl's return will help.

But that is my point, and i reiterate: Giroux and Voracek are covering up a multitude of sins on this team. Quoting how many goals they have scored as a team without providing context doesn't move this conversation along, or prove your point.

It proves mine, because if they lose the deadweight in the lineup, they will likely improve and be able to better withstand the inevitable slowing of production that Giroux and Voracek will endure, since both of them are on pace for 105-plus points, which would be career-highs for both, and for Voracek by 30 points.
- AllInForFlyers

You're making my point. How Giroux and Voracek do, is going to be far more of a factor then how Umberger or the 4th line does. How well the Flyers as a team are going to be able to correct the issues they have with slow starts, and inconsistent intensity and effort, is going to be far more of a factor then how Umberger and the 4th line does. If they can get another line to provide more consistent offensive pressure and production. How the team defense improves and how well they can fix the individual errors and breakdowns that is plaguing this team. And how they improve the PK overall, which is not just due to RJ Umberger. How the defenseman, which lacks a true top pairing and # 1 defenseman does, will have far more of an impact then the 4th line will. The 4th line is so far down the list. And yes, they can hide Umberger on the 4th line, and he can be a decent 4th line player. Especially if he can improve his play. The Flyers aren't doomed as a team because RJ Umberger is on it! That's where the hyperbole comes in. Oh my gosh, Flyers can't make the playoffs with RJ Umberger on the team!
Atleast in your post above you're looking at real factors and real issues with the Flyers as a team. They can't get rid if Umberger right now. So what should they do? Play him on the 4th line, limit his ice time and his role if he isn't going to elevate his play. But they don't have anybody to replace him that is either better, nor should they bring up a young player to play in that spot. Those players are better off remaining in the AHL, and working on their games there. How should they get better players then Rinaldo and Umberger now? Should the Flyers trade a prospect or draft pick to improve the 4th line?

it literally looked fake. like it was edited or something.
- stayinthefnnet

He made a C

All I choked out was "holy (frank)" and just basked in the subsequent replays. I've never seen anything like that. It was not ok.

Ok, Im going to say it. It doesn't matter who he is playing with. That shouldn't effect how he wins battles along the boards or how hard he back checks. He simply hasn't been very good this year. Blame his line mates if you want, but there are things he should be doing that he simply wasn't doing regardless of who he is on the ice with.
- MBFlyerfan

He hasn't played well, I agree.

Most of a player like Akeson's value comes in his ability to make plays and produce offensively. Expecting him to do that while playing with the team's most offensively challenged players, such as Zac Rinaldo or RJ Umberger seems unreasonable, illogical. As a rookie type, Akeson needs to build confidence playing in the NHL...it seems like that was happening last season, when he was featured more prominently in the lineup...but this season, it seems like the combination of playing small minutes with offensively inept linemates along with Berube's extremely short leash and being benched are destroying his confidence.

I think it's no coincidence that, in his first 8 NHL games (last season), when he was played in a regular shift with Coots and Read and got some pp time, Akeson looked like a whole different player. He was confident, effective and among the Flyers best against the Rangers. But he's not going to contribute like that playing as a grinder or while trying to carrying dead weight on a third line. That's not an excuse, it's the reality of it. I'm not surprised that Laughton looks better in the bottom six, he's faster, bigger and more physical and can use those attributes to be more effective than Akeson can in that kind of role. Maybe there's just no suitable fit for Akeson right now on Berube's Flyers...he seems to favor size and hard physical play over finesse and creativity. I just don't want the team to end up mispricing the asset they have before they have chance to do a more comprehensive appraisal, which would entail, at some point, deploying him in a role similar to what he had last season. Who know, maybe he does show that he can't cut it...but I think, all things considered, you have to give him that benefit of the doubt for now.

P.S. And just to address your post, more directly, I don't think Akeson's defensive game or play away from the puck has been so bad that, if he were producing some points, it would still be a significant issue. He hasn't been great out there, but few have.

That is bullpoop. I don't like my role so I am going to half ass this puck battle along the wall. I don't like my role so I'm going to glide back on defense. My line mates aren't good enough for me so I am going to make less of an effort to do the right things on the ice.

All of these things he would and should be doing regardless of his role.
- MBFlyerfan

I understand what you're saying...but frankly, I dont' think Akeson has been any worse than several Flyers in these same areas. Yet some of these other players continue to get rewarded with minutes and pp time and moved around the top nine, while Akeson gets his bottom six minutes cut is criticized and benched.

flyers should try and get Eberle out of that organization that sucks

flyers should try and get Eberle out of that organization that sucks
- Winning

I believe he plays the right side, and his 6M cap hit it tough to swallow. And the cost would probably be one of the young defenseman and somebody like Scott Laughton. And if that is the price, then the two teams aren't a fit for a trade like that cap wise.

Ok, Im going to say it. It doesn't matter who he is playing with. That shouldn't effect how he wins battles along the boards or how hard he back checks. He simply hasn't been very good this year. Blame his line mates if you want, but there are things he should be doing that he simply wasn't doing regardless of who he is on the ice with.
- MBFlyerfan

Couldn't agree more.

How is it Laughton can come in, start with an average first game but follow up with a monster second game regardless of who he is playing with?

You're making my point. How Giroux and Voracek do, is going to be far more of a factor then how Umberger or the 4th line does. How well the Flyers as a team are going to be able to correct the issues they have with slow starts, and inconsistent intensity and effort, is going to be far more of a factor then how Umberger and the 4th line does. If they can get another line to provide more consistent offensive pressure and production. How the team defense improves and how well they can fix the individual errors and breakdowns that is plaguing this team. And how they improve the PK overall, which is not just due to RJ Umberger. How the defenseman, which lacks a true top pairing and # 1 defenseman does, will have far more of an impact then the 4th line will. The 4th line is so far down the list. And yes, they can hide Umberger on the 4th line, and he can be a decent 4th line player. Especially if he can improve his play. The Flyers aren't doomed as a team because RJ Umberger is on it! That's where the hyperbole comes in. Oh my gosh, Flyers can't make the playoffs with RJ Umberger on the team!
Atleast in your post above you're looking at real factors and real issues with the Flyers as a team. They can't get rid if Umberger right now. So what should they do? Play him on the 4th line, limit his ice time and his role if he isn't going to elevate his play. But they don't have anybody to replace him that is either better, nor should they bring up a young player to play in that spot. Those players are better off remaining in the AHL, and working on their games there. How should they get better players then Rinaldo and Umberger now? Should the Flyers trade a prospect or draft pick to improve the 4th line?
- MJL

You do realize that the Flyers lost four of those last five games where Giroux and Voracek scored and assisted on nearly every goal they scored?

It doesn't prove your point when it isn't working. it goes both ways -- other players could play better...while Giroux and Voracek could score less. While both of those are likely to happen and it won't be one game or the other, it isn't likely players who can't generate shots and offense at ES now will offset a downturn from the top line -- and they are still below .500, even with as well as Giroux and Voracek have played.

There are different ways to skin the cat. If you can't score more goals at ES, then you can do more to allow fewer. At -7, -6 and -5, those players have not done that. And there are avenues to remove those players from the roster, even Umberger, if they wanted -- it was already noted that a player of Malhotra's ilk makes less than the cap relief that would be gained through simply waiving him.

They can acquire players of that ilk the way teams always have: mid-round picks have horrible odds in making the NHL. But they are the currency you use for those kinds of players, and I feel,they should do so.

I don't know about you guys but I was very pleasantly surprised with Berube handled the defense and the fourth line against Columbus. I felt the players who deserved to play, did play.

Selfishly it was nice to see a line up without Vandevelde and Akeson. Also I don't see how Berube can keep Laughton out of the line up.

Heading to Joe Louis arena Wednesday. Sadly I'm almost expecting a couple players to get hurt in practice or in tomorrow night's game. Worst yet, Laughton gets sent down.

You do realize that the Flyers lost four of those last five games where Giroux and Voracek scored and assisted on nearly every goal they scored?


- AllInForFlyers

You do realize that the play of Giroux and Voracek is not the only factor I listed that will be a major factor in the Flyers making the playoffs?

It doesn't prove your point when it isn't working. it goes both ways -- other players could play better...while Giroux and Voracek could score less. While both of those are likely to happen and it won't be one game or the other, it isn't likely players who can't generate shots and offense at ES now will offset a downturn from the top line -- and they are still below .500, even with as well as Giroux and Voracek have played.


- AllInForFlyers

If you think it doesn't prove my point when it isn't working, then you don't understand my point. There are many other issues with the team, and reasons why they are below .500. Which I clearly addressed in my post.

There are different ways to skin the cat. If you can't score more goals at ES, then you can do more to allow fewer. At -7, -6 and -5, those players have not done that. And there are avenues to remove those players from the roster, even Umberger, if they wanted -- it was already noted that a player of Malhotra's ilk makes less than the cap relief that would be gained through simply waiving him.


They can acquire players of that ilk the way teams always have: mid-round picks have horrible odds in making the NHL. But they are the currency you use for those kinds of players, and I feel,they should do so.
- AllInForFlyers

A player like Malhotra would cost you atleast a 3rd round pick, maybe lower. I'd rather stick with the players they have. And concentrate on improving the issues that are more important. If a player becomes available cheaper that can help improve the 4th line. I'm all for it. Just don't expect it to have a major impact on the team's fate, as the the other issues I mentioned will have. One way or the other.

Couldn't agree more.

How is it Laughton can come in, start with an average first game but follow up with a monster second game regardless of who he is playing with?
- SuperSchennBros

And a solid 3rd game. Same as Raffl, Bellemare, and even Rinaldo did playing on the 4th line.

And a solid 3rd game. Same as Raffl, Bellemare, and even Rinaldo did playing on the 4th line.
- MJL

A player like Malhotra would cost you atleast a 3rd round pick, maybe lower. I'd rather stick with the players they have. And concentrate on improving the issues that are more important. If a player becomes available cheaper that can help improve the 4th line. I'm all for it. Just don't expect it to have a major impact on the team's fate, as the the other issues I mentioned will have. One way or the other.
- MJL

I really wanted Manny Malhotra at the deadline last season. He didn't even get moved at all and we could have used him.

I really wanted Manny Malhotra at the deadline last season. He didn't even get moved at all and we could have used him.
- SuperSchennBros

i still havent gotten over gaustad netting a first round pick.

Not defending the player. You have that wrong. I'm saying that the Flyers season and making the playoffs isn't dependent on the play of Umberger. I understand the frustration, but it appears that some want to drag Umberger through the streets, tar and feather him. And then stone him at the stake.
It's hyperbole to say that he brings nothing to the team, because when the Flyers get healthy, Umberger can move to the 4th line, and I think he's a better player then the wingers we currently have there. Although I agree that it's not ideal to have a player making 4.6M on the 4th line. I'd prefer that Umberger because of his salary, and what he's giving to the team, be removed. But that's not the reality. So instead of dealing in hyperbole, look at see at what is best with the current personnel. And that's moving Umberger to the 4th line when Raffl is ready to play. But that doesn't make sense to some, because there is sheer panic over Umberger, and that he's going to be the cause of the team missing the playoffs. And you might have a point about the PK being at the bottom of the league, if that was solely because of Umberger. But it's not. When Raffl comes back, he can also take some of those minutes.
- MJL

Then burn him. If all of the above happens and there are no flames to be found, I'm going to be disappointed.

On a more serious note, the Umberger ire arises at least partially from the fact that we traded a fan favorite for a piece of cardboard, but also because he's not our only problem. When you have Umby, VL, VDV, etc. in the lineup, that is definitely a threat to the playoffs.

Not that I care, because this team, from front to back, is a bubble team at best, and there's nothing worse than being slightly above average but not good enough to win it all.

Chicago sucked for quite a few years before becoming elite. Same with Pitt. Same with LA. Call me crazy, but I'll endure a few suckage seasons to bring the cup to Broad St.

Couldn't agree more.

How is it Laughton can come in, start with an average first game but follow up with a monster second game regardless of who he is playing with?
- SuperSchennBros

He's not just fighting for minutes, he's fighting to prove he belongs in the NHL. That'll light a fire...

Then burn him. If all of the above happens and there are no flames to be found, I'm going to be disappointed.

On a more serious note, the Umberger ire arises at least partially from the fact that we traded a fan favorite for a piece of cardboard, but also because he's not our only problem. When you have Umby, VL, VDV, etc. in the lineup, that is definitely a threat to the playoffs.

Not that I care, because this team, from front to back, is a bubble team at best, and there's nothing worse than being slightly above average but not good enough to win it all.

Chicago, sucked for quite a few years before becoming elite. Same with Pitt. Same with LA. Call me crazy, but I'll endure a few suckage seasons to bring the cup to Broad St.
- wolfhounds

I'm fine with being bad for a few years, so long as there is a plan. Under Hextall, I am fairly confident that there is a plan in place, rather than Holmgren's year to year plugging of holes to try and stay a contender every season.

The Umberger anger comes from a few areas. First, he was acquired at the cost of a popular-and still highly effective-player. Second, Umberger's been bad at best, if not horrible. Third, Umberger's carrying a significant cap hit that has contributed to the cap situation being hamstrung and limited the GM's ability to address areas of need.

There are several younger/cheaper players available who can fill Umberger's role and who have played at a similar or higher level. Does that lead to hyperbole? Sure. On both sides of the discussion.