I'm not saying that. Just that he is not a 2nd line scoring center. Not yet anways...
- GOA88

He's a two way center that can put up solid ES scoring numbers, while also playing strong defense, against top line and competition in a deployment that is prohibitive to offensive production. Put any number next to him you'd like.

Just looking at points is very basic for evaluating a player's offensive abilities. Couturier is not on Kopitar's level, we all know that, but there are things working against Couturier, like his offensive zone starts and the quality of competition he faces. He has only ever been used as a 3rd line shutdown center so it's not really fair to evaluate him as a 2nd line scoring center.
- NickTheKid87

Thats the thing. I am not. I am saying he is a 3rd line/shutdown center being relied on to produce at a 2nd line rate. It just isnt there, despite what people think he is capable of.

Only one center in the league scored 90+ points last season, Crosby. The only second line center who can score 70+ points these days is Malkin.

It's 2014, not 1994.
- Feanor

Exactly. Sometimes I wish the actual point totals that players are putting up, would be considered. 70 points at any forward spot is 1st line numbers.

Thats the thing. I am not. I am saying he is a 3rd line/shutdown center being relied on to produce at a 2nd line rate. It just isnt there, despite what people think he is capable of.
- GOA88

If anyone expects him to produce as a 2nd liner in the situation that he is and has been in his entire career, then they either don't understand the circumstances or are living in a fantasy world.

They played in a high-offensive era to begin their careers and Lindros was a stud so it's not really fair to expect having a 100+ point center and an 80+ point center.
- NickTheKid87

Actually, the 90's was more offensively challenged. Crease rule, hooking and holding, no 2 line passing, better goaltenders. Those 90's players were just that damn good.

IDK. None? I was just saying thats what I have been used to as a Flyers fan.
Lindros/Brindy
- GOA88

That hasn't happened since 98-99. How are you used to it?

If anyone expects him to produce as a 2nd liner in the situation that he is and has been in his entire career, then they either don't understand the circumstances or are living in a fantasy world.
- NickTheKid87

Well tell that to everyone else. Not me. Thats what Im saying

He scored more points per ES minute than a bunch of pretty big names.

Kesler, JStaal, Plekanec, Brad Richards, Mike Richards, Zajac, Zubrus, Vrbata, Vermette and Daniel Sedin.

Holding his lack of PP production against him when he was getting limited minutes on the broken second unit is low quality analysis.
- Feanor

I'm just saying it's iffy to look at ES point rankings, divide by 30, and say he's got this history of producing at a '2C' level.

I do believe he'll get there eventually, but he's still got a ways to go.

(Where does the PP figure in? I thought we were talking strictly ES?)

Actually, the 90's was more offensively challenged. Crease rule, hooking and holding, no 2 line passing, better gaoltenders. Those 90's players were just that damn good.
- GOA88

Late 90s early 2000s got closed up. 1992-93 was the highest scoring NHL season ever.

Edit: it was 11th all time after the 80s seasons. Most goals ever scored though.

Last year the centers to average above 0.85 (70 points in 82 games) were Crosby, Malkin, Getzlaf, Tavares, Stamkos, Seguin (RW sometimes), Giroux, Duchene, Pavelski (RW too), Backstrom, Thornton, Toews, Spezza, Krejci, Kopitar and Stastny.

That hasn't happened since 98-99. How are you used to it?
- Feanor

Those point totals are just a rough example. All Im saying is we dont have a 1-2 scoring threat at center. Not like we are used to.
Giroux/Briere
Carter/Richards
Lindros/Brindy
Roenick/Primeau

etc., etc.

Maybe I'm too used to having a 1st line center scoring 90+ pts and the 2nd scoring 70+. That is ideal I guess...
- GOA88

when you are consistenly going up against the other teams top scoring line its going to hinder the point totals a bit if you ask me.

when you are consistenly going up against the other teams top scoring line its going to hinder the point totals a bit if you ask me.
- nastyflyergirl

Maybe. But he is also going against potentially the other teams weakest defensive forwards and defenders. Those players are strapped to Giroux.

Anyone have interest in Jordan Nolan. I see he has been scratched and might be available. Can you do Luke Schenn for Nolan?

Anyone have interest in Jordan Nolan. I see he has been scratched and might be available. Can you do Luke Schenn for Nolan?
- J35Bacher

Sure but doubt the Kings would have any interest in Luke Schenn.

I'm just saying it's iffy to look at ES point rankings, divide by 30, and say he's got this history of producing at a '2C' level.

I do believe he'll get there eventually, but he's still got a ways to go.

(Where does the PP figure in? I thought we were talking strictly ES?)
- Tomahawk

I just think 31 ESP is plenty for a center getting the Zone starts and QoC Couturier got last season on a team that struggled to generate offense 5 on 5.

Thats the thing. I am not. I am saying he is a 3rd line/shutdown center being relied on to produce at a 2nd line rate. It just isnt there, despite what people think he is capable of.
- GOA88

It was there at ES last season. Couturier, along with the rest of the team has to pick up some scoring, besides Giroux and Voracek.

So
Umberger is being traded for a zombie
All of our D are being traded for picks
and Couturier will never score and is a bust

Does that sum things up so far?

I'm just saying it's iffy to look at ES point rankings, divide by 30, and say he's got this history of producing at a '2C' level.

I do believe he'll get there eventually, but he's still got a ways to go.

(Where does the PP figure in? I thought we were talking strictly ES?)
- Tomahawk

It's not iffy at all. Take his point totals and compare him to other players around the league. Nothing iffy about that at all. Giving P/60 is what is actually iffy.

Anyone have interest in Jordan Nolan. I see he has been scratched and might be available. Can you do Luke Schenn for Nolan?
- J35Bacher

Pass.

It was there at ES last season. Couturier, along with the rest of the team has to pick up some scoring, besides Giroux and Voracek.
- MJL

Its just like Forsberg/Gagne in the teams worst season ever.

Seriously though. I know this team is better than this but they need to figure it out quick. Time is running out.

when you are consistenly going up against the other teams top scoring line its going to hinder the point totals a bit if you ask me.
- nastyflyergirl

2nd on the team in Corsi Rel QoC, last on the team in OZ Start%.

http://www.behindthenet.c...+30+32+33+34+45+46+63+67#

How come you don't score more, Sean?

I just think 31 ESP is plenty for a center getting the Zone starts and QoC Couturier got last season on a team that struggled to generate offense 5 on 5.
- Feanor

I could definitely live with that level of raw output, given -12% OZS-rel and a bum PP2.

Just gonna be REALLY hard for him to come anywhere close to those numbers this season, though... he's almost at -20% OZS-rel. And if that's the case, they really do need another line to step up and provide most of the secondary scoring, because there's no way in hell Coots/Read can really do that, with the way they're being used.

So
Umberger is being traded for a zombie
All of our D are being traded for picks
and Couturier will never score and is a bust

Does that sum things up so far?
- BiggE

Looks that way.

"Couturier will never score and is a bust" I think that is mostly dissapointment on my end because I was hoping for a break out year.

I could definitely live with that level of raw output, given -12% OZS-rel and a bum PP2.

Just gonna be REALLY hard for him to come anywhere close to those numbers this season, though... he's almost at -20% OZS-rel. And if that's the case, they really do need another line to step up and provide most of the secondary scoring, because there's no way in hell Coots/Read can really do that, with the way they're being used.
- Tomahawk

I think it's time to demote Read and try Raffl on the Couturier line with Simmonds. He has a lot more jump than Read this season.