No way Coburn or any D on this team fetches you a 1st. Not even a team that is desperate for D help.

Coburn could get you a 2nd.....maybe
- Pelle31Forever

The history of deals at the TDL suggests that teams will overpay for D.

I'm not sure they will even entertain trading him.

I think a guy with his size and skating would get a first rounder.
If he stays healthy he will likely play 23+ minutes a game, and this is valuable to a team needing D for a long playoff run.

Also it's not a lottery pick #1 but a pick late in the round I'm thinking here.

coby could also be used to move VL or RJ if either of those 2 would waive. not desirable, but settling for a lower pick and gaining cap space might be as valuable. tough call
- isaiah520

Coburn is not a player you use as a throw in to try and get rid of a player you want to move. Rather buy them out then basically give Coburn away. Not worried about cap space.

The history of deals at the TDL suggests that teams will overpay for D.

I'm not sure they will even entertain trading him.

I think a guy with his size and skating would get a first rounder.
If he stays healthy he will likely play 23+ minutes a game, and this is valuable to a team needing D for a long playoff run.

Also it's not a lottery pick #1 but a pick late in the round I'm thinking here.
- Marc D

I agree with you. Getting a top 4 defenseman with experience in big games and signed through next season on a good deal would be huge for a contender.

I don't think theres any contender in the NHL that wouldn't kick the tires on Coburn if he became available.

It's impossible for the individual player to have the largest influence on his on ice results. Just by the very fact that he is one of 5 skaters. Those stats cannot do what you think they can do. They can only tell you what happens when a player is on the ice. They cannot tell you is responsible. The false data is far too high to come a credible conclusion on any player. Hockey is a team game. It's all about the data. Garbage in, garbage out.

Over large samples of ice time, an individuals influence on those numbers wins out over competing factors.

Differences in competition even out over time, zone starts are impactful but still marginal, linemates have a dramatic influence because they are the most constant.

The fact that hockey is team game does not preclude us from evaluating an individuals performance within the context of his team.

Guys like Andrew MacDonald and R.J. Umberger have had the worst results among their teammates for 2-3 years running.

Are you genuinely arguing that is just a fluke a bad data?

if he can't make significant strides w/ his speed, he at least has to improve his balance. can't be slow and not strong on the puck.
- isaiah520

Couturier is an average skater. He's normally a very strong player on the puck. Can't be as good defensively as he has been in the past without being strong on the puck. He's 21, and like any player, isn't immune to slumps. We really should've expected this to happen at some point. Unfortunately, it's happening to a bunch of player simultaneously.

Over large samples of ice time, an individuals influence on those numbers wins out over competing factors.

Differences in competition even out over time, zone starts are impactful but still marginal, linemates have a dramatic influence because they are the most constant.

The fact that hockey is team game does not preclude us from evaluating an individuals performance within the context of his team.

Guys like Andrew MacDonald and R.J. Umberger have had the worst results among their teammates for 2-3 years running.

Are you genuinely arguing that is just a fluke a bad data?
- AndrewD

Bro, you could pick a 4 of hearts and show it to him and he still wouldn't believe it's a 4 of hearts.

Over large samples of ice time, an individuals influence on those numbers wins out over competing factors.

Differences in competition even out over time, zone starts are impactful but still marginal, linemates have a dramatic influence because they are the most constant.

The fact that hockey is team game does not preclude us from evaluating an individuals performance within the context of his team.

Guys like Andrew MacDonald and R.J. Umberger have had the worst results among their teammates for 2-3 years running.

Are you genuinely arguing that is just a fluke a bad data?
- AndrewD

It is impossible for that to happen. It doesn't matter how large the sample is. It cannot isolate results on the ice from a team game, and attribute it to one player. Simply not possible. And those stats are unreliable to look at individual players. Until they find a way to isolate on ice data to one player, those statistics are extremely suspect, and unreliable.

Bro, you could pick a 4 of hearts and show it to him and he still wouldn't believe it's a 4 of hearts.
- PhillySportsGuy

I was starting to get that feeling. My first time delving into the comments here.

Thanks for the heads up.

Over large samples of ice time, an individuals influence on those numbers wins out over competing factors.

Differences in competition even out over time, zone starts are impactful but still marginal, linemates have a dramatic influence because they are the most constant.

The fact that hockey is team game does not preclude us from evaluating an individuals performance within the context of his team.

Guys like Andrew MacDonald and R.J. Umberger have had the worst results among their teammates for 2-3 years running.

Are you genuinely arguing that is just a fluke a bad data?
- AndrewD

this is stupid, last season when the team played with structure, he & Coburn both played well.
2 of his giveaways on Friday were the result of the wingers skating too far up ice, while he was forechecked in the corner, funny how some of these guys played much better when the proper system, & structure was being followed last season.

see what McDonough, & Girardi can do while being under duress with no support to pass to, you'll get the same result.

Totally agree!

Would you trade him for an young offensive winger?
Maybe Boedker?
Especially if Laughton continues to progress.
- puckhead17

Absolutely not.

I was starting to get that feeling. My first time delving into the comments here.

Thanks for the heads up.
- AndrewD

No probs. Welcome aboard. You are about to regret it

Absolutely not.
- MJL

why not

I was starting to get that feeling. My first time delving into the comments here.

Thanks for the heads up.
- AndrewD

oh wow its your first day here welcome

No probs. Welcome aboard. You are about to regret it
- PhillySportsGuy

u have to letthe new guys figure this out fir themselves dammnit!!!

Absolutely not.
- MJL

just a thought, he has great speed, & good hands, also plays 2way, could help to stretch the opposition D on an attack, also something we only see with Voracek, (in the wing).

Over large samples of ice time, an individuals influence on those numbers wins out over competing factors.

Differences in competition even out over time, zone starts are impactful but still marginal, linemates have a dramatic influence because they are the most constant.

The fact that hockey is team game does not preclude us from evaluating an individuals performance within the context of his team.

Guys like Andrew MacDonald and R.J. Umberger have had the worst results among their teammates for 2-3 years running.

Are you genuinely arguing that is just a fluke a bad data?
- AndrewD

I'm not a big stats guy, but what I've seen of AMac shows me he does pretty well with limited minutes and when not forced to play against top lines too much.

He was fine playing a 2nd pair/3rd pair role with LSchenn last year.

He gets into trouble playing 24-25+ minutes a game and when forced to play as a number one guy.

Unfortunately the Flyers paid him in line with what UFA defenseman get paid which is usually too much for extended years, and the expectations are pretty high based on this.

Bro, you could pick a 4 of hearts and show it to him and he still wouldn't believe it's a 4 of hearts.
- PhillySportsGuy

Certainly relative to the conversation.


The difference is that it can't be questioned that it's a 4 of hearts. It's factual. This is a normal response when the holes in advanced statistics are brought up to those that worship them as gospel, and they can't refute the argument against them, and their reliability

this is stupid, last season when the team played with structure, he & Coburn both played well.
2 of his giveaways on Friday were the result of the wingers skating too far up ice, while he was forechecked in the corner, funny how some of these guys played much better when the proper system, & structure was being followed last season.

see what McDonough, & Girardi can do while being under duress with no support to pass to, you'll get the same result.
- puckhead17

Coburn spent the majority of his ice time with Timonen last year. 44's influence on the blue line was massive. Without him, the flyers poor depth on the blue line is even more exposed.



2013-2014 on ice results for the Flyers D

Coburn's most common partner this season has been MacDonald. Not surprising to see his on ice results go in the tank along with Amacs.

I like sour cream and bananas.
- 77rams

Hartnell is going to be horrible on the back end of that deal.

I was glad holmer got rid of that contract. Even if it means dealing with umbergers

I'm not a big stats guy, but what I've seen of AMac shows me he does pretty well with limited minutes and when not forced to play against top lines too much.

He was fine playing a 2nd pair/3rd pair role with LSchenn last year.

He gets into trouble playing 24-25+ minutes a game and when forced to play as a number one guy.

Unfortunately the Flyers paid him in line with what UFA defenseman get paid which is usually too much for extended years, and the expectations are pretty high based on this.
- Marc D

Well said. You take a second pair defenseman, try and play him and use him like a top pair defenseman. On a poor 5 on 5 team, and then say hey, look at the numbers. He stinks! It's laughable.

Totally agree!

Would you trade him for an young offensive winger?
Maybe Boedker?
Especially if Laughton continues to progress.
- puckhead17

Not sure about Boedker....he has had some success....what about Yakapov?

Couturier for yak....straight up.

Coburn spent the majority of his ice time with Timonen last year. 44's influence on the blue line was massive. Without him, the flyers poor depth on the blue line is even more exposed.



2013-2014 on ice results for the Flyers D

Coburn's most common partner this season has been MacDonald. Not surprising to see his on ice results go in the tank along with Amacs.
- AndrewD

Of course you're ignoring the fact that last year's team was better then this, even after the slow start. Statistics for defenseman are symbiotic with team play.

Hartnell is going to be horrible on the back end of that deal.

I was glad holmer got rid of that contract. Even if it means dealing with umbergers
- Just5

This is true.

just a thought, he has great speed, & good hands, also plays 2way, could help to stretch the opposition D on an attack, also something we only see with Voracek, (in the wing).
- puckhead17

Certainly would have interest, but not for Couturier. And probably not for what they want in return. I'd assume they'd be looking for forward help, because they have some solid defenseman. I wouldn't trade Couturier, Laughton, or B Schenn for Boedker

How many weeks has MacDonald been out injured prior to his return? Is he Shea Weber, nope but he is serviceable and people pointing out how bad he has been seem to be ignoring he was out for an extend period of time hurt.

Moving Giroux to wing..Sure! Take the top point producer in the league over the past 4 years or whatever it is..Take a Hart finalist..Take a top 6 point person in the league this season..the guy with 55.9 face off % and move him to win to be replaced by a rookie with 7 games and 0 points.. Do it!! problems solved!

Personally I believe that right now Couturier is what he is which is a solid to slightly above average 3 line defensive center. That's a valuable part to this team and I have no problems in keeping him.He is capable of offensive flashes though he isn't the greatest skater. People keep talking about "he needs better wingers" but up until this season Read has had 20 goals in 2 out of his 3 NHL seasons. I have seen nothing about Couturier that makes me think he could skate or match Giroux or Voracek and their dynamic ability so you can't play him with them. I don't move him because I have given up hope on him but I do move him if I can help the team now and in the future.

Berube..isnt great..isnt horrible and has 3 core players (Couturier, Read and Simmonds) that are 100% useless right now. Simmonds might be 90% useless as he at least shows emotion and doesnt seem to coast or drift as much. The other two though are seriously causing problems with their inability to kill a penalty all of the sudden