I'm not sure how relying on a 21 year old who has already struggled with consistency prior to this season to play extremely well was a reasonable expectation. I also don't know where or how people thought Turris would take a giant leap. I've expressed that numerous times and somehow I'm still wrong despite the evidence game after game. He is a 2nd line centre and nothing more. I do agree having other strong centres may help, but that is a whole other discussion. People underestimated the departure of certain players and overestimated the performance of the players we have now. We are in good shape for the long term, but we are going to be dealt growing pains at the beginning.
- Gord_Wilson_2.0

who said "extremely well" or "giant leap".

zibby played well last year, so there was no reason to assume he wouldn't play well this year.

and i said i expected turris to play better than last year (in terms of production)......nobody ever said he'd take a GIANT LEAP forward in his game. expecting him to increase his point total by 5-10pts isn't unreasonable.

i think your 2nd para is one of the reasons that melnyk's budget kills this team. other teams have the ability to waive guys and send them to the minors, or just buy them out.....meaning that deadweight on their team is kept to a minimum, and they don't have nhl ready guys wasting away in the AHL.

this team would be SOOOO much better if guys like greening/gryba/smith/etc were replaced by guys like pageau/wideman/claesson/etc....but the $$ and 1-ways deals prevent it from happening.
- sensarmy_11

yah. i mean, if can't add to our top 6 (let's say, hypothetically) mac,kt, ryan; hoff, zib, stone due to budget etc., then the teams play could be amplified by having a stronger bottom 6... which, ironically, we have in a our system but can't make room for, again, due to budget. if we could roll 4 lines without the usual ball and chain guys, our top 6 guys would have more time/ space out there to make stuff happen.

People underestimated the departure of certain players and overestimated the performance of the players we have now. We are in good shape for the long term, but we are going to be dealt growing pains at the beginning.
- Gord_Wilson_2.0

yah, but would js19 (if that is who you are referring to) help us win more games this season? to be fair, a big part of this teams problem is not being able to exit the zone with possession... spezza (esp. in his later, more recent years) was terrible at that.

EDIT: i think one of the biggest felt effects of js19's absense is that, and i think this is compounded by the lack of production at the other center spots (as mentioned previously by sens army, e.g. zibs, leggy etc) is that without him turris is not only the number 1 target, but one of the only targets at center that teams have to worry about.

yah, but would js19 (if that is who you are referring to) help us win more games this season?
- sen_smile

I would say yes .... he, Michalek and Hemsky played well together at the end of the season and allowed Mac, Turris and Ryan to shine.

Michalek Spezza Hemsky
Mac Turris Ryan
Condra Smith Neil
Hoffman Lazar Stone
Greening

that top 12 is better than what is on the roster right now. I felt it best to keep Zibby in Bingo until at least the mid-point of the year to groom him slowly

Now, I was an advacate of keeping Spezza/Hemsky, to allow the younger guys a year or so to slowly develop into the players we all hope they will turn out to be....... so take that with a certain bias mixed in

who said "extremely well" or "giant leap".

zibby played well last year, so there was no reason to assume he wouldn't play well this year.

and i said i expected turris to play better than last year (in terms of production)......nobody ever said he'd take a GIANT LEAP forward in his game. expecting him to increase his point total by 5-10pts isn't unreasonable.
- sensarmy_11

Well, that isn't going to do anything to improve this team. He was penciled in to be the #1 centre. That comes with expectations for a good increase in production. Maybe that's just me.

If Zibby was playing as an effective 2nd line centre, that would be playing extremely well (he's 21 people). Maybe I missed interpreted people who were actually not expecting much improvement, but thought we'd be fine anyway? Which seems even more baffling thinking of it that way.

I would say yes .... he, Michalek and Hemsky played well together at the end of the season and allowed Mac, Turris and Ryan to shine.

Michalek Spezza Hemsky
Mac Turris Ryan
Condra Smith Neil
Hoffman Lazar Stone
Greening

that top 12 is better than what is on the roster right now. I felt it best to keep Zibby in Bingo until at least the mid-point of the year to groom him slowly

Now, I was an advacate of keeping Spezza/Hemsky, to allow the younger guys a year or so to slowly develop into the players we all hope they will turn out to be....... so take that with a certain bias mixed in
- SensnRBs

and that's where $$$ money becomes an issue. if you keep spezza then you have to extend him (or you lose him for nothing), and then you sign hemsky (let's say for the same deal Dallas gave him) and all of a sudden you have big $ and term invested in 2 guys on the wrong side of 30. sure, it's good for this season, but long term it handicaps this team even more. also means we likely don't have the money to extend ryan or make any trades or UFA signings.

like i said, moving spezza hurts a little in the short term (although i don't think our problems this year have much to do with not having him), but are very beneficial in the long term.

I would say yes .... he, Michalek and Hemsky played well together at the end of the season and allowed Mac, Turris and Ryan to shine.

Michalek Spezza Hemsky
Mac Turris Ryan
Condra Smith Neil
Hoffman Lazar Stone
Greening

that top 12 is better than what is on the roster right now. I felt it best to keep Zibby in Bingo until at least the mid-point of the year to groom him slowly

Now, I was an advacate of keeping Spezza/Hemsky, to allow the younger guys a year or so to slowly develop into the players we all hope they will turn out to be....... so take that with a certain bias mixed in
- SensnRBs

I think every team that has had great long term success will come to a point where the core of the team no longer is able to operate in prime time. I really like this Ottawa team. The fact that its best players are so young speaks really well to the future.

Do not discount that the guys that are moving to the top in the East may be teams like Tampa, the Islanders and Florida. All young teams that are seeing some great young talent mature.

I am not against the older players. Every team needs veteran presence. But, one day it is going to start to come together for the young guys and this is going to be a very good team. I believe they are very close.

Thought Lazar, Stone and Hoffman were Ottawa's best forwards last night. They have broken them up as a line in order to try and help the other lines.

This team is going to be better in the second half. Still a fight to make playoffs. But we need some patience and not do anything crazy.

Well, that isn't going to do anything to improve this team. He was penciled in to be the #1 centre. That comes with expectations for a good increase in production. Maybe that's just me.

If Zibby was playing as an effective 2nd line centre, that would be playing extremely well (he's 21 people). Maybe I missed interpreted people who were actually not expecting much improvement, but thought we'd be fine anyway? Which seems even more baffling thinking of it that way.
- Gord_Wilson_2.0

turris had around 60 pts last year (too lazy to look it up), so if he increases that by 10, that puts him near 70, which IMO is a decent 1st line center. certainly not the elite level guys, but it puts him with guys like duchene, krecji, stastny, etc

i don't think it is/was unreasonable to think turris can do that....especially if he has a 2nd line center who's playing well and taking some pressure off him

as for zibby, i expected him to put up around 40-50pts.....with increased TOI and improved linemates, it's not out of the question. 40-50 would be good 2nd line production, and not an unrealistic step for zibby to take.

and that's where $$$ money becomes an issue. if you keep spezza then you have to extend him (or you lose him for nothing), and then you sign hemsky (let's say for the same deal Dallas gave him) and all of a sudden you have big $ and term invested in 2 guys on the wrong side of 30. sure, it's good for this season, but long term it handicaps this team even more. also means we likely don't have the money to extend ryan or make any trades or UFA signings.

like i said, moving spezza hurts a little in the short term (although i don't think our problems this year have much to do with not having him), but are very beneficial in the long term.
- sensarmy_11

Just look at the numbers for next year. It is not going to be easy for Ottawa to get under the cap unless they move some salary out.

yah, but would js19 (if that is who you are referring to) help us win more games this season? to be fair, a big part of this teams problem is not being able to exit the zone with possession... spezza (esp. in his later, more recent years) was terrible at that.

EDIT: i think one of the biggest felt effects of js19's absense is that, and i think this is compounded by the lack of production at the other center spots (as mentioned previously by sens army, e.g. zibs, leggy etc) is that without him turris is not only the number 1 target, but one of the only targets at center that teams have to worry about.
- sen_smile

We would be a little better. The team needed to make a decision. Stick with the core we had and build around that or develop a new core. They chose the 2nd which is fine. My advocacy for keeping Spezza was that he had a few more good years in him and could have been utilized better. It didn't make sense to keep him if the rest of the roster was (or majority of it) under 25 years old.

The decision to move on was fine. However, it should have come with the assumption that there will be growing pains. It's mind boggling to think we would actually be better this season. Way to many ifs for that to happen with this young team.

and that's where $$$ money becomes an issue. if you keep spezza then you have to extend him (or you lose him for nothing), and then you sign hemsky (let's say for the same deal Dallas gave him) and all of a sudden you have big $ and term invested in 2 guys on the wrong side of 30. sure, it's good for this season, but long term it handicaps this team even more. also means we likely don't have the money to extend ryan or make any trades or UFA signings.

like i said, moving spezza hurts a little in the short term (although i don't think our problems this year have much to do with not having him), but are very beneficial in the long term.
- sensarmy_11

The Spezza trade is fine and probably won't be a win for us it'll be even at best - but the hard feelings with Spezza leaving after naming him Captain - you have to wonder what's going on behind the scenes.

Just look at the numbers for next year. It is not going to be easy for Ottawa to get under the cap unless they move some salary out.
- spatso

i fully expect salary to be moved out. either by trade/waive/buyout i expect at least 3-4 of the following players to not be on this roster next year:

legwand, smith, condra, greening, gryba, weircioch, methot, michalek

sens won't be anywhere within sniffing distance of the cap next year......unless melnyk loosens the purse strings and lets murray (or new GM ) bring in some new players.

The Spezza trade is fine and probably won't be a win for us it'll be even at best - but the hard feelings with Spezza leaving after naming him Captain - you have to wonder what's going on behind the scenes.
- tuna99

i think you're the only one seeing "hard feelings" in that situation. everyone seemed perfectly amicable (sp?) in those dealings. everyone had nothing but good things to say about the other. it was never a "i hate it here" situation for spezza, and it was never a "he sucks we don't want him here" thing for the team.

ottawa was not at a point where they could afford to invest big money and term in an aging and often injured player........and spezza was not at a point in his career where he wanted to continue to be part of a rebuild (although it seems that's exactly what he's in, but don't think he or anyone expected that). it seemed like a mutaul split that both parties wanted, we're happy to do, and neither seemed to have any bad feelings towards the other.

We would be a little better. The team needed to make a decision. Stick with the core we had and build around that or develop a new core. They chose the 2nd which is fine. My advocacy for keeping Spezza was that he had a few more good years in him and could have been utilized better. It didn't make sense to keep him if the rest of the roster was (or majority of it) under 25 years old.

The decision to move on was fine. However, it should have come with the assumption that there will be growing pains. It's mind boggling to think we would actually be better this season. Way to many ifs for that to happen with this young team.
- Gord_Wilson_2.0

hey now, i'm an optimist, and i always assume that all "if's" will come to pass.

turris had around 60 pts last year (too lazy to look it up), so if he increases that by 10, that puts him near 70, which IMO is a decent 1st line center. certainly not the elite level guys, but it puts him with guys like duchene, krecji, stastny, etc

i don't think it is/was unreasonable to think turris can do that....especially if he has a 2nd line center who's playing well and taking some pressure off him

as for zibby, i expected him to put up around 40-50pts.....with increased TOI and improved linemates, it's not out of the question. 40-50 would be good 2nd line production, and not an unrealistic step for zibby to take.
- sensarmy_11

Turris had 58. Turris and Zibby are on pace for 55 and 25 points respectively. Maybe it's time to put the preseason predictions to bed and look at what is actually happening. Let's not forget these two "two-way centres" are on pace for a combined -29 so far. I'm just feeling they are playing out of their element right now. A lot of people are already conceding we need a new #1 centre, which I am in total agreement with. I like Turris slotted in the 2nd line.

No need to panic. If the Senators aren't in a playoff position by January, BM will most definitely trade away Anderson for a top-15 1st round pick. Even if this team doesn't make the Playoffs this year, it's a few years away of actually being a Contender. I can't believe BM and his staff were able to find gems in the late rounds in both Stone and Hoffman. In a few short seasons those two will be very solid top-6 wingers.

I would say yes .... he, Michalek and Hemsky played well together at the end of the season and allowed Mac, Turris and Ryan to shine.

Michalek Spezza Hemsky
Mac Turris Ryan
Condra Smith Neil
Hoffman Lazar Stone
Greening

that top 12 is better than what is on the roster right now. I felt it best to keep Zibby in Bingo until at least the mid-point of the year to groom him slowly

Now, I was an advacate of keeping Spezza/Hemsky, to allow the younger guys a year or so to slowly develop into the players we all hope they will turn out to be....... so take that with a certain bias mixed in
- SensnRBs

Hemsky is having a great season.

Turris had 58. Turris and Zibby are on pace for 55 and 25 points respectively. Maybe it's time to put the preseason predictions to bed and look at what is actually happening. Let's not forget these two "two-way centres" are on pace for a combined -29 so far. I'm just feeling they are playing out of their element right now. A lot of people are already conceding we need a new #1 centre, which I am in total agreement with. I like Turris slotted in the 2nd line.
- Gord_Wilson_2.0

oh, believe me, i've put those to bed.

my point was that you were saying that people who thought we could improve were homers. i was simply saying that some assumptions, even though they obviously didn't work out, weren't "homer" assumptions. They were definitely feasible, but just didn't pan out.

Wiercioch is on the verge of being either traded or waived. He's not at practice per Garrioch..................

No need to panic. If the Senators aren't in a playoff position by January, BM will most definitely trade away Anderson for a top-15 1st round pick. Even if this team doesn't make the Playoffs this year, it's a few years away of actually being a Contender. I can't believe BM and his staff were able to find gems in the late rounds in both Stone and Hoffman. In a few short seasons those two will be very solid top-6 wingers.
- TheCalSen

That's what we should be looking at. This is a rebuilding team. Seeing guys like Stone and Hoffman play well is nothing but a positive thing. Other areas will be addressed as seasons roll on. It's frustrating that we have to go through basically 2 rebuilds in 5 years, but if that's going to make us a much better in 2017 or thereabout, I'm all for it.

Wiercioch is on the verge of being either traded or waived. He's not at practice per Garrioch..................
- TheCalSen

"mainenance day" along with lehner and karlsson

No need to panic. If the Senators aren't in a playoff position by January, BM will most definitely trade away Anderson for a top-15 1st round pick. Even if this team doesn't make the Playoffs this year, it's a few years away of actually being a Contender. I can't believe BM and his staff were able to find gems in the late rounds in both Stone and Hoffman. In a few short seasons those two will be very solid top-6 wingers.
- TheCalSen

Yep, loved Stones feed on Macs goal last night.

I'm very impressed with how his skating has improved. If I had to pick one of the two, (just for sake of argument) it'd be him. He's a fair bit younger.

However, not sure Anderson gets traded, at least at this point.

i think you're the only one seeing "hard feelings" in that situation. everyone seemed perfectly amicable (sp?) in those dealings. everyone had nothing but good things to say about the other. it was never a "i hate it here" situation for spezza, and it was never a "he sucks we don't want him here" thing for the team.

ottawa was not at a point where they could afford to invest big money and term in an aging and often injured player........and spezza was not at a point in his career where he wanted to continue to be part of a rebuild (although it seems that's exactly what he's in, but don't think he or anyone expected that). it seemed like a mutaul split that both parties wanted, we're happy to do, and neither seemed to have any bad feelings towards the other.
- sensarmy_11

I can't ever remember a long term player who's named Captain and then 82 games later asked to be traded Especially is that's a Canadian team and the player is local - of course something is going on behind the scenes in Ottawa.

That's what we should be looking at. This is a rebuilding team. Seeing guys like Stone and Hoffman play well is nothing but a positive thing. Other areas will be addressed as seasons roll on. It's frustrating that we have to go through basically 2 rebuilds in 5 years, but if that's going to make us a much better in 2017 or thereabout, I'm all for it.
- Gord_Wilson_2.0

That one playoff series victory was pretty sweet. Gave me some chirps to send at my habs fan friend.

The rangers series was fun too, even though they lost.

I can't ever remember a long term player who's named Captain and then 82 games later asked to be traded Especially is that's a Canadian team and the player is local - of course something is going on behind the scenes in Ottawa.
- tuna99

what difference does it make when in his captaincy he was traded. it signals to me that the team realized that he wasn't the player they wanted to build around anymore, and instead of dragging it out for years and years, the moved on. nothing wrong with that. would you have preferred they held on to him, and then we run into situations like they had in tampa with st louis, or in new york with callahan, or the on going situation they've had in toronto with phaneuf or washington with ovechkin, or even worse, san jose and thornton.

sometimes the wrong guy gets made captain, there's nothign wrong with realizing your mistake, and moving on from it.