Thank you Bill.

Briere was a great Flyer.

He even took in Giroux when he was homeless.
- Marc D

Absolutely, the Briere signing, along with acquiring Hartnell and Timonen, were great moves made by Holmgren that started the rebuild of the team into a Cup contender.

Very well put!
Retooling, over rebuilding.
But, another problem, the nicely assembled core mentioned above leaves us unbalanced without defense, (as you mentioned earlier).
I know its hindsight, but the 4 players acquired should have included a defenseman.
- puckhead17

In my view, the single biggest mistake made by Holmgren, was failing to draft and develop defense well. That is costing this team right now. Hopefully that is going to be corrected soon with the defense prospects the team has. It would've been great if they had received a good defenseman in the deals, but that player has to be made available in a trade. They could've drafted a defenseman with the 8th pick that they used to draft Couturier.

Very well put!
Retooling, over rebuilding.
But, another problem, the nicely assembled core mentioned above leaves us unbalanced without defense, (as you mentioned earlier).
I know its hindsight, but the 4 players acquired should have included a defenseman.
- puckhead17

That's where the gamble on Pronger being a Norris level defenseman for the life of his deal comes into play. Obviously, Holmgren counted on Pronger to play at least another 4 or 5 years at a high level.

Yes, it was a freak injury that led to his "retirement". But Holmgren was betting on a guy in his mid to late 30's to continue being an elite level NHLer. Timonen remained a really good player even last year.

Holmgren's gamble on those two even extended to the draft-grabbing Couturier & Laughton over Maatta and Hamilton. Not having the picks lost for Grossmann & Kubina, among others.

That's where the gamble on Pronger being a Norris level defenseman for the life of his deal comes into play. Obviously, Holmgren counted on Pronger to play at least another 4 or 5 years at a high level.

Yes, it was a freak injury that led to his "retirement". But Holmgren was betting on a guy in his mid to late 30's to continue being an elite level NHLer. Timonen remained a really good player even last year.

Holmgren's gamble on those two even extended to the draft-grabbing Couturier & Laughton over Maatta and Hamilton. Not having the picks lost for Grossmann & Kubina, among others.
- Jsaquella

I loved the move when it was made, and still do. Other then the injury, no reason why Pronger couldn't have continued to play at a high level. If a difference maker like that can be acquired, I hope the team makes the move every time.

When looking at Clarke, Holmgren and Hextall, we might be looking at three very different aproaches to the game. Clarke was very proactive to grab any star available whenever he could. Hextall has only made one deal that has yet to workout and seems very hesitant to make another. With all things considered, Holmgren was something in the middle. He's made a lot of creative trades, splashes and signings but ultimately the youth movement began with him.

The Forsberg, Richards, Carter, Coburn, Carle, Pronger and Hartnell/Timonen deals were some of the savviest movements I've ever seen.

In my view, the single biggest mistake made by Holmgren, was failing to draft and develop defense well. That is costing this team right now. Hopefully that is going to be corrected soon with the defense prospects the team has. It would've been great if they had received a good defenseman in the deals, but that player has to be made available in a trade. They could've drafted a defenseman with the 8th pick that they used to draft Couturier.
- MJL

Correct, by either trade, (young D man), or by selection, he banked on Kimmo, & Pronger, lasting much longer than they did.

That's where the gamble on Pronger being a Norris level defenseman for the life of his deal comes into play. Obviously, Holmgren counted on Pronger to play at least another 4 or 5 years at a high level.

Yes, it was a freak injury that led to his "retirement". But Holmgren was betting on a guy in his mid to late 30's to continue being an elite level NHLer. Timonen remained a really good player even last year.

Holmgren's gamble on those two even extended to the draft-grabbing Couturier & Laughton over Maatta and Hamilton. Not having the picks lost for Grossmann & Kubina, among others.
- Jsaquella

Agreed!
Unfortunately, the JVR trade has been his biggest criticism more than anything he may have done well.

When looking at Clarke, Holmgren and Hextall, we might be looking at three very different aproaches to the game. Clarke was very proactive to grab any star available whenever he could. Hextall has only made one deal that has yet to workout and seems very hesitant to make another. With all things considered, Holmgren was something in the middle. He's made a lot of creative trades, splashes and signings but ultimately the youth movement began with him.

The Forsberg, Richards, Carter, Coburn, Carle, Pronger and Hartnell/Timonen deals were some of the savviest movements I've ever seen.
- SuperSchennBros

There's a boatload of quality moves that were made by Holmgren. Unfortunately, only the bad ones are remembered and talked about on here, on a regular basis.

As far as Hextall is concerned. I like that he is being patient. In my opinion, that is the absolute right play now.

Agreed!
- puckhead17

I don't see past moves having an effect on the players that were drafted. Flyers draft philosophy has always been best player available.

I don't see past moves having an effect on the players that were drafted. Flyers draft philosophy has always been best player available.
- MJL

Then you move around the draft if you have to.

There's a boatload of quality moves that were made by Holmgren. Unfortunately, only the bad ones are remembered and talked about on here, on a regular basis.

As far as Hextall is concerned. I like that he is being patient. In my opinion, that is the absolute right play now.
- MJL

I think the most underrated deal made by Holmgren was Talbot for Downie. I think this team prior to Thursday evening could have used such a deal. If the Blues gave a green light to a Read for Oshie, I'd have to do it. The real test is this Tuesday. This team needed a kick in the pants only days ago.

Then you move around the draft if you have to.
- puckhead17

Not sure what you're referring to there.

I think the most underrated deal made by Holmgren was Talbot for Downie. I think this team prior to Thursday evening could have used such a deal. If the Blues gave a green light to a Read for Oshie, I'd have to do it. The real test is this Tuesday. This team needed a kick in the pants only days ago.
- SuperSchennBros

They've earned 8 out of a possible 12 points in the month of December. I think the best course of action right now is to sit back and evaluate. If a deal comes along that you would make even if the team had a strong record, then by all means make it. But no panic moves that are made to try and save this season.

Agreed!
- puckhead17

It's led to numerous issues. The bottom line is, right now, the Flyers are a very expensive, mediocre team. Whether they paid the piper back in 2012 or now isn't really relevant, the day the bill came due was going to happen.

Hopefully, even as cap space opens up, Hextall sticks with the plan he's outlined. Develop youngsters, don't make a big deal just because it's available, if you have to make a short term fix, do it as cheaply as possible.

They've earned 8 out of a possible 12 points in the month of December. I think the best course of action right now is to sit back and evaluate. If a deal comes along that you would make even if the team had a strong record, then by all means make it. But no panic moves that are made to try and save this season.
- MJL

I agree to an extent. I'm not saying Read for Oshie is a given, it's only a deal of my own creation but they're close to the same player, they bring the same things, we take on money but upgrade the shootout. This is why I bring up Talbot for Downie as an example without major changes. However, Read has shown up two games in a row.

It's led to numerous issues. The bottom line is, right now, the Flyers are a very expensive, mediocre team. Whether they paid the piper back in 2012 or now isn't really relevant, the day the bill came due was going to happen.

Hopefully, even as cap space opens up, Hextall sticks with the plan he's outlined. Develop youngsters, don't make a big deal just because it's available, if you have to make a short term fix, do it as cheaply as possible.
- Jsaquella

I don't think he has much of a choice, no one offers top tier defensemen in trade, not without a deal that will create more holes.
Not like we can make a Linseman for Mark Howe deal again.

Agreed!
Unfortunately, the JVR trade has been his biggest criticism more than anything he may have done well.
- puckhead17

The biggest issue there is the value he received. They needed a young defenseman, but with Grossmann locked up for another 4 years, did the team need another physical, stay at home type? If they could have gotten a guy like Yandle, perhaps they are more balanced on defense.

Maybe then they don't need to sign Streit & trade the pick for his rights. Maybe they don't feel a need to trade for & re-sign MacDonald.

I don't think he has much of a choice, no one offers top tier defensemen in trade, not without a deal that will create more holes.
Not like we can make a Linseman for Mark Howe deal again.
- puckhead17

No, but guys like Laughton, Couturier and Brayden Schenn will have value. The benefit of stockpiling good, young centers is that, after defense, center is the most valuable position in terms of trade value.

I'm not advocating shopping one of those 3 kids, but it remains an option. If a trade does go down, Hextall can't repeat the outcome of the JvR-Schenn trade

I don't think he has much of a choice, no one offers top tier defensemen in trade, not without a deal that will create more holes.
Not like we can make a Linseman for Mark Howe deal again.
- puckhead17

Unfortunately, that's everything for this team right now. Add even one top defenseman, easier said then done, drastically changes the outlook of this team.

The bottom line is, some see the recent losing streak as a true indicator of how good this team is. Personally, I just see it as a speed bump, and don't view it as an indictment of the current core of this team, and this team's future moving forward. A lot of things can change real quick in the NHL.

The biggest issue there is the value he received. They needed a young defenseman, but with Grossmann locked up for another 4 years, did the team need another physical, stay at home type? If they could have gotten a guy like Yandle, perhaps they are more balanced on defense.

Maybe then they don't need to sign Streit & trade the pick for his rights. Maybe they don't feel a need to trade for & re-sign MacDonald.
- Jsaquella

Having Yandle instead would have played a different hand moving forward.

This team seems like it is really only about three players away from being a legit top tier competitor.

First they need the all around #1 franchise D.
Also need a top 4, two way defenseman with a right handed shot.
Third, another winger who is a playmaker and can create on his own, preferably a LW.

That's not too much for a GM to acquire, is it?

Having Yandle instead would have played a different hand moving forward.
- puckhead17

Never know how true it is, but every time I read rumors on Yandle being available, the rumored cost is exorbitantly high. I'd rather make the move to bring in Streit, then make the deal for Yandle. Yandle is not that much better then Streit is.

Yep, the tanking talk has ceased, and I guess Couturier and Read no longer suck.

- MJL

They were never tanking. It just made sense to a lot of us for them to be a basement team this season and get a high draft pick as opposed to being a bubble playoff team with little to no hope of getting anywhere near the cup. Again.

And Read has 3 goals over 29 games. Not exactly a world-burner.

This team seems like it is really only about three players away from being a legit top tier competitor.

First they need the all around #1 franchise D.
Also need a top 4, two way defenseman with a right handed shot.
Third, another winger who is a playmaker and can create on his own, preferably a LW.

That's not too much for a GM to acquire, is it?


- Marc D

I agree on the needs. Doesn't seem like a lot, but it really is.

They were never tanking. It just made sense to a lot of us for them to be a basement team this season and get a high draft pick as opposed to being a bubble playoff team with little to no hope of getting anywhere near the cup. Again.

And Read has 3 goals over 29 games. Not exactly a world-burner.
- wolfhounds

I understand that. But the typical responses are made during a losing streak, such as this player is a bum, this player is overrated, etc. Personally, I'm going to give Matt Read the benefit of the doubt, and view the player we've seen in previous seasons, and for the last few games, is more indicative of the player that Read is, versus the first quarter of this season.