Agreed. When those guys are playing with superstars like Downie, Umberger, Talbot, Fedotenko, and McGinn as consistent linemates, I'm surprised they don't already have several 50-goal seasons between them.
- jmatchett383

I would be willing to bet you could put Corey Perry on that line and even his numbers would drop, significantly. Couts and Read are not all that and a bag a chips. Sorry guys. They just arent.

Slop also gives you "offensive production" while crap just kinda wanders around the ice in a foggy haze.
- jmatchett383

true..you also forgot to mention #SlopDown....

I would be willing to bet you could put Corey Perry on that line and even his numbers would drop, significantly. Couts and Read are not all that and a bag a chips. Sorry guys. They just arent.
- GOA88

And I'd argue that if you put any one of those wingers on a line with Corey Perry his numbers would drop, significantly.

Chicken or egg?

true..you also forgot to mention #SlopDown....
- PhillaBully

I'll admit Hartnell has his faults, and the length of his contract was worrisome. But it's not like Umberger's play has been remotely close to making up for the decline in PIM and extra years on the contract (to me).

And I'd argue that if you put any one of those wingers on a line with Corey Perry his numbers would drop, significantly.

Chicken or egg?
- jmatchett383

Ummm, you're just basically saying exactly what I said. Heres the thing... there is not one person that can argue that Couts and Read are great offensively. These are 30-40 pt. players. There is no evidence to suggest otherwise. They have had their chance to play with Simmonds and Schenn and even Voracek a couple seasons ago. It doesnt work.... While those players succeed on other lines.

Ummm, you're just basically saying exactly what I said. Heres the thing... there is not one person that can argue that Couts and Read are great offensively. These are 30-40 pt. players. There is no evidence to suggest otherwise. They have had their chance to play with Simmonds and Schenn and even Voracek a couple seasons ago. It doesnt work.... While those players succeed on other lines.
- GOA88

No, I was saying the players that have played with them for extended stretches (McGinn, Talbot, etc.) would drag ANY PLAYER'S offensive production down. Basically, you're saying they're the problem, and I'm arguing that the other players they've played with are a problem that's prohibiting them.

They played B. Schenn on their line for like 3 games, and it was the Flyers' best line over that stretch. Then Berube decided to switch back to having Umberger on that line, and their play dropped. Maybe if you gave them an extended look with a player that isn't a mucker/grinder (Umberger, Downie, etc.) they'd actually show some pop.

No, I was saying the players that have played with them for extended stretches (McGinn, Talbot, etc.) would drag ANY PLAYER'S offensive production down. Basically, you're saying they're the problem, and I'm arguing that the other players they've played with are a problem that's prohibiting them.

They played B. Schenn on their line for like 3 games, and it was the Flyers' best line over that stretch. Then Berube decided to switch back to having Umberger on that line, and their play dropped. Maybe if you gave them an extended look with a player that isn't a mucker/grinder (Umberger, Downie, etc.) they'd actually show some pop.
- jmatchett383

MAYBE. It doesnt help that Read is basically north-south with no puckhandling skills and isnt some speed demon and Couts is just about as slow as Vinny at the ripe age of 22.

Ummm, you're just basically saying exactly what I said. Heres the thing... there is not one person that can argue that Couts and Read are great offensively. These are 30-40 pt. players. There is no evidence to suggest otherwise. They have had their chance to play with Simmonds and Schenn and even Voracek a couple seasons ago. It doesnt work.... While those players succeed on other lines.
- GOA88

Nobody here is arguing they are "great" anything.

Nobody here is arguing they are "great" anything.

- MBFlyerfan

No, everybody expects these guys to produce offensively. I think this fan base and management has overrated many of the players on this team.

Maybe thats why this team is one of the worst in the league???

I'll admit Hartnell has his faults, and the length of his contract was worrisome. But it's not like Umberger's play has been remotely close to making up for the decline in PIM and extra years on the contract (to me).
- jmatchett383

I liked hartnell a lot. I think the reasons they gave are complete BS and it bothers me that they craped on him on the way out...His contract though had to go. I would have been happy with picks.

I liked hartnell a lot. I think the reasons they gave are complete BS and it bothers me that they craped on him on the way out...His contract though had to go. I would have been happy with picks.
- PhillaBully

As would I. I'll admit I was more bothered with the return that with what they gave up. I liked Hartnell and a lot, but I know there were negatives to both his game and contract. But the trade itself can't really be viewed as anything but a catastrophic failure presently.

$3M hit for three years (including this one). Nashville gave him 11 minutes/game over those 5 games he played, but he was just coming off an injury. He played well in Chicago before initially going to FLA.

In the right situation, he could rebound.
- tangent_man

He has wheels. i would take a look at him. He could play on the couturier line

MAYBE. It doesnt help that Read is basically north-south with no puckhandling skills and isnt some speed demon and Couts is just about as slow as Vinny at the ripe age of 22.
- GOA88

I wish we had a team full of north-south players who average over 20 goals per 82 games.

No, everybody expects these guys to produce offensively. I think this fan base and management has overrated many of the players on this team.

Maybe thats why this team is one of the worst in the league???
- GOA88

So we shouldn't expect them to produce offensively then? Read, a guy who has 2 20 goal seasons under his belt and Couturier, a 22 year old kid playing a mostly defensive role who scored 39 points last season, the majority at even strength, which is right in line with most 2nd and 3rd line centers in the league. We should never expect that they should score?

Got it.

thank god we traded for crap over the summer. I heard that crapier was a former 400 goal scorer and that crapiest is on the team because hes the coaches illegitimate son
- PhillaBully

I'm pretty sure it was crapiest we traded for over the summer At least the illegitimate crap can provide some physicality and skates hard!

Ummm, you're just basically saying exactly what I said. Heres the thing... there is not one person that can argue that Couts and Read are great offensively. These are 30-40 pt. players. There is no evidence to suggest otherwise. They have had their chance to play with Simmonds and Schenn and even Voracek a couple seasons ago. It doesnt work.... While those players succeed on other lines.
- GOA88

Read is a 20+ goal scorer and good two-way forward and I'd take that on the third line any day. Same goes for Couturier, even if he doesn't top 50 points.

As would I. I'll admit I was more bothered with the return that with what they gave up. I liked Hartnell and a lot, but I know there were negatives to both his game and contract. But the trade itself can't really be viewed as anything but a catastrophic failure presently.
- jmatchett383

i didnt like the low class way berube trashed the guy on his way out. It should have been just for picks/prospects.

I'm pretty sure it was crapiest we traded for over the summer At least the illegitimate crap can provide some physicality and skates hard!
- kcm57

touche...

Well, considering that it is one of the slowest lines on the team and the center (Couts) has a career high 39 pts and is again struggling to find consistancy to his offensive game and Read who looks like a black hole this season other than picking up a few points in the last 5 games... still not seeing the turn around in his overall play.... and they are counted on for defense mostly.... I dont think its outrageous to say that whoever plays on that line will see a drop in production almost certainly. I dont want to see Schenn or Simmonds play on that line. Thats how I feel about that.
- GOA88

We've discussed this before, and I've presented both Couturier and Read's scoring numbers at ES in the past, which has both been solid numbers, when you consider how they are used, and the situations they play in.

i didnt like the low class way berube trashed the guy on his way out. It should have been just for picks/prospects.
- PhillaBully

Somehow I doubt that you could have traded Hartnell for just picks and prospects. I think a bad contract had to come back from whatever team he was traded to. Maybe Umberger was the least bad contract that Hextall was able to find. There really is no way of knowing. I think in three years or whatever length Umberger has left we're going to be happy that that trade was made.

Ummm, you're just basically saying exactly what I said. Heres the thing... there is not one person that can argue that Couts and Read are great offensively. These are 30-40 pt. players. There is no evidence to suggest otherwise. They have had their chance to play with Simmonds and Schenn and even Voracek a couple seasons ago. It doesnt work.... While those players succeed on other lines.
- GOA88

Here's where the disconnect is. When you are a 3rd line Winger tasked with a lot of defensive zone starts, checking opposition top lines, as well as playing a large role on the PK, which are hard minutes, and you can score in the 40 point range and put up 20+ goals, that's pretty strong stuff there. It seems as though you are dismissing their role, usage, and comparing them offensively to top line players, to state that they aren't a bag of chips. That's where I think your analysis is faulty.

I find it funny and ironic that some of the same people that want this team to do bad so we can get a top pick are some of the same people that complain every time Berube makes a personnel decision that they think makes the team worse.

No, everybody expects these guys to produce offensively. I think this fan base and management has overrated many of the players on this team.

Maybe thats why this team is one of the worst in the league???
- GOA88

You know if Couturier was made available almost every team would check in on him. He is 21 and already solid defensively. That is usually the hardest part to teach. His offensive will come and you can see his skills. His draft year he was talked about as the possible number one until he got mono. Yes he isn't a speed demon but niether is some other skilled players like Joe thorton. Also Couturier plays against some f the hardest competition and is asked to still push play offensivly. Thats a lot of responsibility on a 21 year old.

People talk about how the Patrick Sharpe trade was bad. Trade Couturier and I am sure we will have another to talk about.

Somehow I doubt that you could have traded Hartnell for just picks and prospects. I think a bad contract had to come back from whatever team he was traded to. Maybe Umberger was the least bad contract that Hextall was able to find. There really is no way of knowing. I think in three years or whatever length Umberger has left we're going to be happy that that trade was made.
- JonnyHammerstix

maybe they could have traded him at this years deadline for some picks. I think if they waited with the injuries CBJ had this year they could have traded him by now for picks...Its just sad that the best that they could have gotten was umberger.

I find it funny and ironic that some of the same people that want this team to do bad so we can get a top pick are some of the same people that complain every time Berube makes a personnel decision that they think makes the team worse.
- JonnyHammerstix

No one is satisfied with the tank until the draft pick is awarded