Like I said earlier, it's not that Orton was anything great, Manuel was simply even worse than that.

And, as I said in the Minnesota game, with Orton, they gave away points. With Manuel, there simply wouldn't have been any points to even give away. They wouldn't have even got into Minnesota territory.

That being said, perhaps a year on the bench and an offseason of training and film study changes this, but in Manuel so far has looked clueless more often than not. The only time he looked good was when the rest of the team was firing on all cylinders. When one part even looked remotely average, he crumbled.
- buffalofan19

Again I will ask.... How is 10 games enough to learn in the NFL for a QB and secondly how do you judge a QB on that small time frame?......

I think I mentioned it's all media about 2 weeks ago
- SABRES 89

You probably did. I think the first person they look to move is Yakupov, but I don't think they'll get any takers, not at a price worth writing home about anyway. If they do look to move someone for a somewhat decent return, it will be either Eberle or Nugent-Hopkins.

I guess moving Ennis is my way of keeping Myers here. I would think if we trade for Hall it will involve Myers or Ennis imo.
- mhp

Yeah but you are old........

You probably did. I think the first person they look to move is Yakupov, but I don't think they'll get any takers, not at a price worth writing home about anyway. If they do look to move someone for a somewhat decent return, it will be either Eberle or Nugent-Hopkins.
- buffalofan19

IMO, Eberle is there big trade chip because it makes no sense to move Hall or RNH .

They did move the ball better slightly under Orton, at least in the early stages, than they did with Manuel, and the stats did show it. The main problem is that their red zone offense was atrocious, which does fall on the quarterback.

I'm sorry, but they don't win either of those games under Manuel. It's not even just about lack of ability. It's also about his teammates quitting on him, which they did after the Houston game.
- buffalofan19

I don't like Orton or EJ very much but Orton was just capable of making more throws. The first 4 games they won a couple DESPITE EJ. If EJ played the whole season we would have finished 5-11.

I guess moving Ennis is my way of keeping Myers here. I would think if we trade for Hall it will involve Myers or Ennis imo.
- mhp

I don't see them moving Hall for Ennis though. It's not really going to change anything for them. If anything, it would hurt them. While I like Ennis, he's not as good as Hall is. If they're going to move a guy like Hall, it's going to be to improve another area of their team.

They did move the ball better slightly under Orton, at least in the early stages, than they did with Manuel, and the stats did show it. The main problem is that their red zone offense was atrocious, which does fall on the quarterback.

I'm sorry, but they don't win either of those games under Manuel. It's not even just about lack of ability. It's also about his teammates quitting on him, which they did after the Houston game.
- buffalofan19

7 straight 3 and outs against the Jets
5 straight 3 and outs against the Raiders

No offensive TD's against the Packers or Dolphins

It was literally no better. Same problems, just a guy that looked like a prototypical QB making the mistakes.

Gotta give to get and it sucks that it would have to be Myers but if they want a scoring young Winger, what do you do? The Rangers will sell there souls for Hall and it seems the Bruins as well.
- SABRES 89

I hear ya. Like I said if we drafted Hanifin or Kylington it would mean moving Myers a little easier. I'd still like a vet d in there next year not named Meszaros or Benoit. I wouldn't trade both Myers and Pysyk for Hall though, our d depth will be brutal.

I don't see them moving Hall for Ennis though. It's not really going to change anything for them. If anything, it would hurt them. While I like Ennis, he's not as good as Hall is. If they're going to move a guy like Hall, it's going to be to improve another area of their team.
- HonkFortheGoose

I didn't mean straight up, more as the bigger pieces in the trade.

Again I will ask.... How is 10 games enough to learn in the NFL for a QB and secondly how do you judge a QB on that small time frame?......
- rapperray

There are quarterbacks who can do it, and have done it. And there are certain traits and qualities that you simply have or you don't. I know we all are rightfully skeptical on people's "sources", but I'm going to say it anyway: I have it on good authority that the Bills' biggest frustration with Manuel is that he cannot make more than one read in a dropback to save his life, and that's usually not something that you learn. It's something you either have or you don't. It's also something they had to shelter him from at Florida State. Couple that with his accuracy issues, and you get a quarterback that loses more games than he wins.

Yeah but you are old........
- rapperray

Morning old fart.

Did Santa leave something on your front lawn?

I hear ya. Like I said if we drafted Hanifin or Kylington it would mean moving Myers a little easier. I'd still like a vet d in there next year not named Meszaros or Benoit. I wouldn't trade both Myers and Pysyk for Hall though, our d depth will be brutal.
- mhp

Pretty good D men that will be out there next year we can grab but, Myers size, skill and speed will be hard to find. As is a young scoring winger like Hall. Hard spot to be in if you ask me.

Morning old fart.

Did Santa leave something on your front lawn?
- mhp

7 straight 3 and outs against the Jets
5 straight 3 and outs against the Raiders

No offensive TD's against the Packers or Dolphins

It was literally no better. Same problems, just a guy that looked like a prototypical QB making the mistakes.
- sbroads24

Look, you've heard me say multiple times, this Bills don't have a good enough quarterback on this roster, and that's why. My take is that I have 0% confidence Manuel would have been any different.

There are quarterbacks who can do it, and have done it. And there are certain traits and qualities that you simply have or you don't. I know we all are rightfully skeptical on people's "sources", but I'm going to say it anyway: I have it on good authority that the Bills' biggest frustration with Manuel is that he cannot make more than one read in a dropback to save his life, and that's usually not something that you learn. It's something you either have or you don't. It's also something they had to shelter him from at Florida State. Couple that with his accuracy issues, and you get a quarterback that loses more games than he wins.
- buffalofan19

So this begs the question.... Then why was he drafted? And who orchestrated that pick? Whaley? He was pretty much doing the GM duties then. If so, then Whaley needs to be fired. He screwed up the Watkins draft and the Manuel draft.... Two VERY BIG blunders...

So this begs the question.... Then why was he drafted? And who orchestrated that pick? Whaley? He was pretty much doing the GM duties then. If so, then Whaley needs to be fired. He screwed up the Watkins draft and the Manuel draft.... Two VERY BIG blunders...
- rapperray

Move along...nothing to see here................

7 straight 3 and outs against the Jets
5 straight 3 and outs against the Raiders

No offensive TD's against the Packers or Dolphins

It was literally no better. Same problems, just a guy that looked like a prototypical QB making the mistakes.
- sbroads24

Correct. Orton's inability to handle pressure was the reason we didn't make playoffs. EJ should have saw the field yesterday. Even if it was only the second half. We had nothing to lose. Marrone wasn't doing whats best long term.

So this begs the question.... Then why was he drafted? And who orchestrated that pick? Whaley? He was pretty much doing the GM duties then. If so, then Whaley needs to be fired. He screwed up the Watkins draft and the Manuel draft.... Two VERY BIG blunders...
- rapperray

That is the big question. They decided that the best quarterback in his draft was a guy who wasn't even the best quarterback on his own team at the time. And the Bills were warned by his college coach about it as well:

http://www.cbssports.com/...e-tools-to-be-nfl-starter

Correct. Orton's inability to handle pressure was the reason we didn't make playoffs. EJ should have saw the field yesterday. Even if it was only the second half. We had nothing to lose. Marrone wasn't doing whats best long term.
- Buffalo-Sabres

I was not opposed to seeing Manuel yesterday either, FWIW.

Look, you've heard me say multiple times, this Bills don't have a good enough quarterback on this roster, and that's why. My take is that I have 0% confidence Manuel would have been any different.
- buffalofan19

Not playing your first round draft QB who started 2-2 in place of a journeymen is counterproductive. I understood while they pulled him, but once Orton hit the same wall they should have worked EJ back in.

Look, you've heard me say multiple times, this Bills don't have a good enough quarterback on this roster, and that's why. My take is that I have 0% confidence Manuel would have been any different.
- buffalofan19

And unfortunately we will never know.

This is my take. We should have known for sure.

There is a rift between Whaley and Marrone about certain players. EJ is one of them. Whaley wants EJ to play.

I was not opposed to seeing Manuel yesterday either, FWIW.
- buffalofan19

Wyrd. It frustrated me. I really enjoyed the win, as cheesy as it was. At least we punished both qb's and screwed Cleveland as hard as we could on that pick.

And unfortunately we will never know.

This is my take. We should have known for sure.

There is a rift between Whaley and Marrone about certain players. EJ is one of them. Whaley wants EJ to play.
- sbroads24

Pegula doesn't have the balls to fire both GM and Coach, where have we seen this before?

I didn't mean straight up, more as the bigger pieces in the trade.
- mhp

Oh, I get that. But it still doesn't make sense for them to do that. They have a huge need at defense. So it doesn't make any sense to trade their best offensive player and have the main piece they get back be an offensive player that isn't even as good as the one they gave up. Even if they are getting a few other pieces along with him.

Not playing your first round draft QB who started 2-2 in place of a journeymen is counterproductive. I understood while they pulled him, but once Orton hit the same wall they should have worked EJ back in.
- Buffalo-Sabres

This.

We weren't 0-4 or even 1-3.

I would have loved to see what Orton would have done with JJ Watt on him all game. That game IMO would have been worse