I don't disagree with using analytics as part of player evaluation. But when you have people (like an unnamed Penguins writer) who use graphs generated from (somewhat arbitrary) equations as the be-all/end-all of player evaluation, it's just wrong. There are so many factors that go into how a player plays on any given night or over any given stretch that pure analytics can't properly evaluate a player.

Also, after the Ranger's series last year, a friend of mine sent me a picture of some chart showing how many Flyers were good or bad based off of some stats (can't remember it exactly). I didn't disagree with it, but I also said I could have told him that just by watching the series and evaluating it. If a player is playing well or poorly, the stats generally will reflect that, but when you simply use stats as a pure indicator of a player, you're doing yourself a disservice,
- jmatchett383

I like stats/charts/etc. as a means of questioning what I think I saw, or what I assume, or whatever. But there is this sense from a some stats guys that non-empirical analysis is worthless, that everything that matters is quantifiable, and it's kind of a turn off.

It really takes a bit of everything to get the whole picture, and even then there are things that're subjective or unknowable.

i still cannot fathom david perron being worth a first round pick, but it made me think.....if you could get a first in this draft for simmonds would it be a good idea to move him?
- hogweed

For me, it would have to be an early first rounder to consider it.

i still cannot fathom david perron being worth a first round pick, but it made me think.....if you could get a first in this draft for simmonds would it be a good idea to move him?
- hogweed

No way. Simmer's a true-blue keeper.

By all accounts, this is a close knit group, despite their struggles, so I don't think that's the case either. The leader of this team is Claude Giroux. Who does everything for this team, and shows up to play every game. Including last night on one leg, while still being one of the team's best players. I don't know what else Giroux could do from a leadership standpoint.
- MJL

I agree completely. I don't know how vocal Giroux is in the locker room but his play on the ice and his passion to try and win every game is an example that every player on the team should follow and feed off of. If a player has checked out (Matt Read) then maybe it is time for that or any other player to move on.

By all accounts, this is a close knit group, despite their struggles, so I don't think that's the case either. The leader of this team is Claude Giroux. Who does everything for this team, and shows up to play every game. Including last night on one leg, while still being one of the team's best players. I don't know what else Giroux could do from a leadership standpoint.
- MJL

Agreed, I think Giroux's actually a pretty fantastic captain.

(frank)ing jsaq
- PhillySportsGuy

So you believe the players on the team that is the problem and not the coach? So the Flyers should get a team that fits the coach and not the other way around?
- Daveflyers36

I don't beleive the coach is the main problem with this team, but when a team plays poorly, and underacheives, the coach has to share culpability in that. I don't beleive a team should ever cater it's player moves, to fit the coach.

By all accounts, this is a close knit group, despite their struggles, so I don't think that's the case either. The leader of this team is Claude Giroux. Who does everything for this team, and shows up to play every game. Including last night on one leg, while still being one of the team's best players. I don't know what else Giroux could do from a leadership standpoint.
- MJL

Ok, so now we have gotten to the point where you dont think its leadership or the coach thats the issue. So what do you think the problem is other than talent? I am asking why outside of a handful of players (I.E. Giroux, Voracek, Mason, Simmonds and maybe a few others) does this team take so many shifts/games off. They roll over in divisional rival games for christ sake....

I'm not saying the Flyers should have all of those things just that the heart and effort are clearly lacking. Thats what bothers me the most.
- GOA88

I think it's other issues that manifest itself as a lack of effort.

i still cannot fathom david perron being worth a first round pick, but it made me think.....if you could get a first in this draft for simmonds would it be a good idea to move him?
- hogweed

I wouldn't move a young proven player who has scored 28, 29 and projected 27 the lockout season who is also a team leader for an unknown.

I don't beleive the coach is the main problem with this team, but when a team plays poorly, and underacheives, the coach has to share culpability in that. I don't beleive a team should ever cater it's player moves, to fit the coach.
- MJL

I don't think the coach is the MAIN problem either. We all know that are defenseive core is abysmal and Berube can't be blamed for that. I do think a different coach with a different system might make them marginally better on defense. But this team with the players it has should not have trouble scoring for long stretches at a time. There is enough fire power on this team to not get stuck in long funks. I think that is on Berube and his game plans for the offense.

I think it's other issues that manifest itself as a lack of effort.
- MJL

That explains why the arent physical, and dont play with desperation. Unless they play the Penguins. Right?

By all accounts, this is a close knit group, despite their struggles, so I don't think that's the case either. The leader of this team is Claude Giroux. Who does everything for this team, and shows up to play every game. Including last night on one leg, while still being one of the team's best players. I don't know what else Giroux could do from a leadership standpoint.
- MJL

I don't think that Giroux is a bad captain. I don't think he's a GREAT captain, but I don't think he's a bad one.

That said, he's not my ideal type of captain. I like the Chris Pronger type of captain. I don't know exactly how to say it, but they're the "grizzled veteran" types who can unquestionably call out any player in the dressing room and can never have their heart called into question. Granted, guys like Pronger/Toews/Brown/etc. are few and far between, but in my ideal world, that's who I prefer. But, given what we have right now, Giroux is a fine choice.

Ok, so now we have gotten to the point where you dont think its leadership or the coach thats the issue. So what do you think the problem is other than talent. I am asking why outside of a handful of players (I.E. Giroux, Voracek, Mason, Simmonds and maybe a few others) does this team take so many shifts/games off. They roll over in divisional rival games for christ sake....
- GOA88

I'm not MJL, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express. I think the problem largely is some hefty holes on the roster, along with the mental fatigue of a tough season.

I'm not MJL, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express. I think the problem largely is some hefty holes on the roster, along with the mental fatigue of a tough season.
- BulliesPhan87

This. And the one feeds the other.

I think it's other issues that manifest itself as a lack of effort.
- MJL

Yeah, there's actually a lot of wasted effort due to poop execution and poor team play.

I'm not MJL, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express. I think the problem largely is some hefty holes on the roster, along with the mental fatigue of a tough season.
- BulliesPhan87

Lol. Of course the talent is a problem with this team. I just cant understand why the dont show up with any sort of emotion against rivals or in must win situations. They only show up with that emotion when they play Pitt.

I don't think that Giroux is a bad captain. I don't think he's a GREAT captain, but I don't think he's a bad one.

That said, he's not my ideal type of captain. I like the Chris Pronger type of captain. I don't know exactly how to say it, but they're the "grizzled veteran" types who can unquestionably call out any player in the dressing room and can never have their heart called into question. Granted, guys like Pronger/Toews/Brown/etc. are few and far between, but in my ideal world, that's who I prefer. But, given what we have right now, Giroux is a fine choice.
- jmatchett383

Captains like Pronger have more clout because they have done it and were successful. Giroux is getting there. Having back to back top 5 scoring seasons and on pace for another one all the while gutting it out when hurt like last night shows real leadership. Giroux may not be a great captain just yet but he is on the right track and will be.

Lol. Of course the talent is a problem with this team. I just cant understand why the dont show up with any sort of emotion against rivals or in must win situations. They only show up with that emotion when they play Pitt.
- GOA88

If we could only play the Pens all 82 games.

Ok, so now we have gotten to the point where you dont think its leadership or the coach thats the issue. So what do you think the problem is other than talent? I am asking why outside of a handful of players (I.E. Giroux, Voracek, Mason, Simmonds and maybe a few others) does this team take so many shifts/games off. They roll over in divisional rival games for christ sake....
- GOA88

They are a fragile team mentally that lacks confidence, and has a number of players that are in deep funks. When a team is in that situation mentally, they try and play as individuals, and play outside of themselves too much. Instead of just reacting and playing instinctually, they think the game, which leads to hesitiation, and that leads to a lack if intensity. A confident team firing on all cylinders is an intense team. This team has some personel issues that have been exacerbated by mental and confidence issues.

Matt Read is a perfect example. He was a strength of the team in past seasons. A player that could play against top lines while putting up solid scoring numbers at ES. RIght now, Read has 2 ES goals in 40 games. He looks like he can't make a simple play right now, there is no speed in his game. I assure you he ahsn't lost his ability. He is just in a deep mental funk right now, with no signs of coming out of it.

I'm not MJL, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express. I think the problem largely is some hefty holes on the roster, along with the mental fatigue of a tough season.
- BulliesPhan87

Depth of skill is very shallow. They're a lot like the Leafs... a few guys that are carrying play, and then a bunch of others who are purely passengers (or just hanging on by the skin of their teeth) dragging the whole thing down.

Meanwhile, not enough cap space to do anything about it since so many guys are getting paid more than they should.

Captains like Pronger have more clout because they have done it and were successful. Giroux is getting there. Having back to back top 5 scoring seasons and on pace for another one all the while gutting it out when hurt like last night shows real leadership. Giroux may not be a great captain just yet but he is on the right track and will be.
- Daveflyers36

Make G taller, a bit older (with a bit less ass grabbing) and he's just like Pronger.

I don't think that Giroux is a bad captain. I don't think he's a GREAT captain, but I don't think he's a bad one.

That said, he's not my ideal type of captain. I like the Chris Pronger type of captain. I don't know exactly how to say it, but they're the "grizzled veteran" types who can unquestionably call out any player in the dressing room and can never have their heart called into question. Granted, guys like Pronger/Toews/Brown/etc. are few and far between, but in my ideal world, that's who I prefer. But, given what we have right now, Giroux is a fine choice.
- jmatchett383

Pronger's personality is definitely the type I like for a captain. Even Jason Smith I liked as captain. I'm not really buying the whole Toews is a great captain talk. Look at the supporting cast he has. Its easy to be a captain with that roster.....

Yeah, there's actually a lot of wasted effort due to poop execution and poor team play.
- Tomahawk

Execution is part of the equation for sure, but there's lot's of reasons for why execution is poor at times. Some of it talent and ability, but not all of it.

I don't think that Giroux is a bad captain. I don't think he's a GREAT captain, but I don't think he's a bad one.

That said, he's not my ideal type of captain. I like the Chris Pronger type of captain. I don't know exactly how to say it, but they're the "grizzled veteran" types who can unquestionably call out any player in the dressing room and can never have their heart called into question. Granted, guys like Pronger/Toews/Brown/etc. are few and far between, but in my ideal world, that's who I prefer. But, given what we have right now, Giroux is a fine choice.
- jmatchett383

I think Giroux is a pretty dam good Captain. I value a Captain on the ice far more then a Captain in the room. Lead by example, the rest is just talk. Calling out a player is easy to do.