not to bring up the trade yet again but I really haven't had the chance to catch much of the Kings this year thus far so I was just looking at their stats. really surprised to see Carter has ONE more goal than Couturier. ONE.

Carter - 41 GP 11-19-30 +4
Couturier - 41 GP 10-11-21 +3
Voracek - 41 GP 16-33-49 +12

Richards - 41 GP 5-9-14 -8
Simmonds - 41 GP 16-10-26 -3
Schenn - 41 GP 9-16-25 +1

and thrown in the fact picks also helped acquire Grossmann and draft Cousins

we love to kill homer and he deserves a lot of it but man did he do very well with those trades. its annoying how many will point to it being losses because the Kings won 2 cups but I really think that is not accurate at all.
- nastyflyergirl

Nope -- that was a prime example of knowing exactly when to sell

Homer's like every other GM who ever lived; some good deals, some bad

But he absolutely killed those two. Totally crushed them, and that isn't even debatable in my book

Grossmann has reliably been the worst possession defensemen on the team by a huge margin while not getting particularly hard minutes, and being fortunate enough to played with our best offensive dman in Streit. That's the kind of reliability we can do without.

http://www.broadstreethoc...grossmann-analysis-flyers

"Nicklas Grossmann is a negative-128 in terms of on-ice shot attempts. The rest of the defense combined is a negative-95."
- Feanor

I seriously hate those stats and I am a stats person (I do a lot of stats for work). dmen like Grossmann are still needed.

His CA/60 is a good deal worse than MDZ and Streit, two guys who are supposedly bad in their own zone. You'd think a guy who's so consistent and has so many defensive tools would be actually good at shot-suppression, instead of the worst at it.
- Tomahawk

See what I posted above... a shot can be essentially suppressed even when it gets on net -- and even from good shooting areas. Grossmann is very much in a similar mode to Kjell Samuelsson in that regard.

Hockey changes over time but it doesn't change THAT much. There's a reason why Grossmann, even with all his injuries over the years, is at 500-plus NHL games and counting before his 30th birthday.

Testament to what I call "talented longevity" -- I don't mean that as a backhanded compliment, like people do when they criticize some baseball players for being "compilers," not impact players.

I think it's a true statement of character and will to be consistent, year after year after year, like Brind'Amour was. Still have hopes that Couturier will be like him, still think Couturier's a 60-70 point player
- AllInForFlyers

The thing with Couturier is this. Will he ever be a dynamic enough player to a) truly raise the game of his wingers, and b) provide a 2nd line that the opposing coach needs to be wary of; that can take pressure off of the G line?

I know guys on this board really love him. And I think he is a very, very good 3rd line guy. But I just haven't seen anything that suggests that if you are down a goal in a game 7, you could put his line out there and really feel good about your chances.

That is the problem with the forward group on this team. They are a one-line team, with 2 other lines that can get hot for a game or two but cannot sustain that success. They have a collection of nice individual pieces, but collectively they don't complement each other well.

See what I posted above... a shot can be essentially suppressed even when it gets on net -- and even from good shooting areas. Grossmann is very much in a similar mode to Kjell Samuelsson in that regard.

Hockey changes over time but it doesn't change THAT much. There's a reason why Grossmann, even with all his injuries over the years, is at 500-plus NHL games and counting before his 30th birthday.
- bmeltzer

I'm on my phone so I cant really look it up, but if someone can prove that goalies have a higher save percentage or that a lesser percentage of shots reach the goaltender when Grossmann is on the ice, it would statistically prove this point

Edit: I'm talking about over an entire career

The thing with Couturier is this. Will he ever be a dynamic enough player to a) truly raise the game of his wingers, and b) provide a 2nd line that the opposing coach needs to be wary of; that can take pressure off of the G line?

I know guys on this board really love him. And I think he is a very, very good 3rd line guy. But I just haven't seen anything that suggests that if you are down a goal in a game 7, you could put his line out there and really feel good about your chances.

That is the problem with the forward group on this team. They are a one-line time, with 2 other lines that can get hot for a game or two but cannot sustain that success. They have a collection of nice individual pieces, but collectively they don't complement each other well.
- TheGreat28

Hey, I understand your thoughts/concerns -- I do wish Couturier's production was higher.

But at the same time, here's some of the wingers that kid's had to carry, along with Read: Maxime Talbot. An injured Steve Downie. Vinny Lecavalier. R.J. Umberger. I always like to joke that Peter Laviolette got fired the day after he played Zac Rinaldo 14 minutes on Couturier's wing.

I just think it'd be hard to for anyone to be dynamic enough to raise the play of those guys -- when Downie didn't have his face broken, they looked dynamic then, I thought

See what I posted above... a shot can be essentially suppressed even when it gets on net -- and even from good shooting areas. Grossmann is very much in a similar mode to Kjell Samuelsson in that regard.

Hockey changes over time but it doesn't change THAT much. There's a reason why Grossmann, even with all his injuries over the years, is at 500-plus NHL games and counting before his 30th birthday.
- bmeltzer

I seriously hate that people judge players on those corsi stats instead of just watching the player.

The thing with Couturier is this. Will he ever be a dynamic enough player to a) truly raise the game of his wingers, and b) provide a 2nd line that the opposing coach needs to be wary of; that can take pressure off of the G line?

I know guys on this board really love him. And I think he is a very, very good 3rd line guy. But I just haven't seen anything that suggests that if you are down a goal in a game 7, you could put his line out there and really feel good about your chances.

That is the problem with the forward group on this team. They are a one-line team, with 2 other lines that can get hot for a game or two but cannot sustain that success. They have a collection of nice individual pieces, but collectively they don't complement each other well.
- TheGreat28

Maybe not but if its game 7 and the Flyers are protecting a 1 goal lead I feel VERY confident in putting Couturier out there. If he consistently scores 20 a year and plays a solid 2 way game I am very happy.

Hey, I understand your thoughts/concerns -- I do wish Couturier's production was higher.

But at the same time, here's some of the wingers that kid's had to carry, along with Read: Maxime Talbot. An injured Steve Downie. Vinny Lecavalier. R.J. Umberger. I always like to joke that Peter Laviolette got fired the day after he played Zac Rinaldo 14 minutes on Couturier's wing.

I just think it'd be hard to for anyone to be dynamic enough to raise the play of those guys -- when Downie didn't have his face broken, they looked dynamic then, I thought
- AllInForFlyers

It's definitely a fair point. But actually Talbot is sort of a good example. When they played the Avs a couple weeks ago, remember Max's comments about Jake? He "joked" that the reason he was a 19 goal scorer that year was because of all the time he played with Jake. Couts obviously did not have the same affect on Talbot's game.

Look, it's all well and good for us to debate how these guys fit together, but what Hextall does is going to be dramatically affected by what opportunities present themselves. It's easy for me to say they need to trade either Couturier or Laughton and play the remaining guy on the 3rd line. But if no one is giving decent value for the other, well, both are too good and valuable to simply give away.

But I think the Flyers would be best served with a true playmaking center on the 2nd line. 2010 would not have happened without the Briere line. They have been missing that role ever since.

Maybe not but if its game 7 and the Flyers are protecting a 1 goal lead I feel VERY confident in putting Couturier out there. If he consistently scores 20 a year and plays a solid 2 way game I am very happy.
- nastyflyergirl

I completely agree with this part of your statement. It's why I believe the Flyers would be in awesome shape with Couturier as their 3rd line, shutdown center.

I'm on my phone so I cant really look it up, but if someone can prove that goalies have a higher save percentage or that a lesser percentage of shots reach the goaltender when Grossmann is on the ice, it would statistically prove this point

Edit: I'm talking about over an entire career
- PhillySportsGuy

Year | ES SV%* | Relative to Team SV%

2014-15: 94.6% (+4.0%)
2013-14: 92.2% (-0.3%)
2012-13: 91.5% (+0.6%)
2011-12: 91.7% (-0.4%)
2010-11: 92.9% (+1.1%)
2009-10: 90.4% (-1.8%)
2008-09: 90.3% (-0.7%)
2007-08: 92.0% (0.9%)

His effect is negligible, except for this year, where the SV% is crazy.

They've pretty much already determined that defensemen can't sustain their impact on team-SV% from year to year, despite what common sense may suggest.

* - median ES SV% around the league tends to rest at around 92%.

It's definitely a fair point. But actually Talbot is sort of a good example. When they played the Avs a couple weeks ago, remember Max's comments about Jake? He "joked" that the reason he was a 19 goal scorer that year was because of all the time he played with Jake. Couts obviously did not have the same affect on Talbot's game.

Look, it's all well and good for us to debate how these guys fit together, but what Hextall does is going to be dramatically affected by what opportunities present themselves. It's easy for me to say they need to trade either Couturier or Laughton and play the remaining guy on the 3rd line. But if no one is giving decent value for the other, well, both are too good and valuable to simply give away.

But I think the Flyers would be best served with a true playmaking center on the 2nd line. 2010 would not have happened without the Briere line. They have been missing that role ever since.
- TheGreat28

Absolutely -- somebody needs to drop 60 points in that 2C role. You are dead-on

The thing with Couturier is this. Will he ever be a dynamic enough player to a) truly raise the game of his wingers, and b) provide a 2nd line that the opposing coach needs to be wary of; that can take pressure off of the G line?

I know guys on this board really love him. And I think he is a very, very good 3rd line guy. But I just haven't seen anything that suggests that if you are down a goal in a game 7, you could put his line out there and really feel good about your chances.

That is the problem with the forward group on this team. They are a one-line team, with 2 other lines that can get hot for a game or two but cannot sustain that success. They have a collection of nice individual pieces, but collectively they don't complement each other well.
- TheGreat28

I think Couturier can be a very solid 2nd line center. He may not be dynamic in a way but he is efficient and provided we upgrade his wingers could produce very well behind the giroux line.

Bill Meltzer: Meltzer's Musings: Flyers Hit Midpoint with OT Win
- bmeltzer

the other officials seemed to very much disagree with the ref who signaled that high stick as a good goal

Absolutely -- somebody needs to drop 60 points in that 2C role. You are dead-on
- AllInForFlyers

I'm greedy. I actually want a 2nd line that could be a first line on half the teams in the league. I want a guy with upside of 70+, and someone that skews towards lots of assists.

I don't see them being able to trade for a #1 defenseman without giving up G, Vorachek or McDavid (assuming they won the lottery). They have to hope Sanheim, Ghost and Morin pan out. So focus short term on the forwards. They need to re-balance the portfolio.

See what I posted above... a shot can be essentially suppressed even when it gets on net -- and even from good shooting areas. Grossmann is very much in a similar mode to Kjell Samuelsson in that regard.

Hockey changes over time but it doesn't change THAT much. There's a reason why Grossmann, even with all his injuries over the years, is at 500-plus NHL games and counting before his 30th birthday.
- bmeltzer

Agreed. It's why I think Cup contenders will be very interested in Grossmann.

Hockey changes over time but it doesn't change THAT much.
- bmeltzer

Yeah, I agree the game hasn't changed that much. Our understanding of the game, however, is another story.

Once this curtain gets pulled off the D-Dman Wizard of Oz, I think it's going to be over for guys like Grossmann as top-4 players. As utility-players/specialists, sure... but the tolerance for that extra 10-15 seconds of zone time for the opposition on poor exits, failed clears, chasing the puck, preventable icing is going to wane big time.

I think Couturier can be a very solid 2nd line center. He may not be dynamic in a way but he is efficient and provided we upgrade his wingers could produce very well behind the giroux line.
- J35Bacher

He played earlier in the year with Simmonds and Read. Both have had offensive success in the league, but floundered with Couts. Some of it was the role. Some of it is that Berube didn't give them enough time together. But a lot of this has to fall on Couturier too. His lack of assists is a little alarming.

Yeah, I agree the game hasn't changed that much. Our understanding of the game, however, is another story.

Once this curtain gets pulled off the D-Dman Wizard of Oz, I think it's going to be over for guys like Grossmann as top-4 players. As utility-players/specialists, sure... but the tolerance for that extra 10-15 seconds of zone time for the opposition on poor exits, failed clears, chasing the puck, preventable icing is going to wane big time.
- Tomahawk

I think perhaps the issue will be in the marginal cost for veteran defenseman. Yes, defensive defenseman do not make as much as offensive guys. But the cost overall is still rising for ALL dman. At some point you need to get more out of a guy you're paying 4+ million for.

Agreed. It's why I think Cup contenders will be very interested in Grossmann.
- BiggE

As Tomahawk pointed out recently, no one had any interest in taking Bryan Allen for free. And he has 721 games of NHL experience.

Yeah, I agree the game hasn't changed that much. Our understanding of the game, however, is another story.

Once this curtain gets pulled off the D-Dman Wizard of Oz, I think it's going to be over for guys like Grossmann as top-4 players. As utility-players/specialists, sure... but the tolerance for that extra 10-15 seconds of zone time for the opposition on poor exits, failed clears, chasing the puck, preventable icing is going to wane big time.
- Tomahawk

I think it is already over for those guys now. You don't see too many winning teams with top 4 defenders who can't move the puck effectively. That's what makes the Flyers so infuriating is that they keep going against the trend. Its one of the things that concern me about Morin. Watching him in the WJC, he didn't exactly move the puck better than Grossmann does now. It is comical to me though that when Morin made a short pass or chipped it out the zone it was a small smart efficient play according to flyers fans but when Grossmann does the same thing he sucks.

You must have missed Morin's outstanding length of the ice breakout pass in the gold medal game.

Yeah, I agree the game hasn't changed that much. Our understanding of the game, however, is another story.

Once this curtain gets pulled off the D-Dman Wizard of Oz, I think it's going to be over for guys like Grossmann as top-4 players. As utility-players/specialists, sure... but the tolerance for that extra 10-15 seconds of zone time for the opposition on poor exits, failed clears, chasing the puck, preventable icing is going to wane big time.
- Tomahawk

Plays like this are why Grossmann gives up so many more shot attempts than the other defensmen.

I seriously hate that people judge players on those corsi stats instead of just watching the player.
- nastyflyergirl

Deep stats are the salt and pepper of the player analysis meal. They are a nice addition but aren't the meat and potatoes of the meal. Good old fashioned observation and subjective analysis by experienced professional hockey people is still the most important part, imho.

Grossmann has reliably been the worst possession defensemen on the team by a huge margin while not getting particularly hard minutes, and being fortunate enough to played with our best offensive dman in Streit. That's the kind of reliability we can do without.

http://www.broadstreethoc...grossmann-analysis-flyers

"Nicklas Grossmann is a negative-128 in terms of on-ice shot attempts. The rest of the defense combined is a negative-95."
- Feanor

CORSI/shot based stats fail to take a number of aspects of the game into account. It's foolish to make conclusions about players based primarily on those statisitics, without considering numerous other factors that have a real impact on games (things that don't necessarily show up in CORSI or other stats).

This season, in 5 v 5 play, the Flyers have allowed the FEWEST goals against while Grossmann has been on the ice (per 60 mins of D man icetime)...in addition, they're more effective offensively when Grossmann is on the ice than all but two other D men. These facts imply there are other factors at play that account for his net effectiveness (in terms of allowing goals against and promoting goals for) aside from CORSI. I can see from the eye test that he's a solid, consistent, physical D man and not the disaster that Charlie painsts him as...I guess I agree with the "hockey people" that Bill cites on this one.

So Imagine if the Flyers were able to get Connor McDavid. The centers would be Giroux, McDavid, Couturier and Laughton. That would easily be the best center group in the league within two years. They would also have that group together for 6-10 years.
- mickel25

If that happens, one of the centers would likely be traded to shore up another position.