So wait, we're saying advanced stats are flawed because of the subjective nature of the data? Observing the game is just as subjective if not more so...what is going on here???

Do we not similarly interpret the data with our unreliable eyeballs as well? Is it not collected and categorized by unreliable eyeballs?
- BulliesPhan87

Yup and yup. Hoping the latter gets cleaned up w/ tracking equipment soon.

Still though, it even says TB up in the score display. wtf guys
- BulliesPhan87

Haha, I know right?

So wait, we're saying advanced stats are flawed because of the subjective nature of the data? Observing the game is just as subjective if not more so...what is going on here???
- NickTheKid87

- PhillaBully

This is pretty much the best visualization for this.

So wait, we're saying advanced stats are flawed because of the subjective nature of the data? Observing the game is just as subjective if not more so...what is going on here???
- NickTheKid87

SOME advanced stats are kind of subjective...like those successful clearing attempt stats for example...a human trying to analyze and record exactly what happened can be subjective as it is sometimes open to interpretation. Certainly the use of adv stats can be subjective when some people extrapolate/make assumptive leaps in their interpretations from them to try and use them to back their opinion.

So wait, we're saying advanced stats are flawed because of the subjective nature of the data? Observing the game is just as subjective if not more so...what is going on here???
- NickTheKid87

That's the problem with the stats community, they see things in black and white. Sometimes I wonder if they actually watch the game! A link to an article the other day on Grossmann was posted in which the article said that Grossmann has been on the ice for 5 goals against in the last 5 games. I would think the author would actually watch the game and see if Grossmann was at fault for those goals. He was at fault for only one of the goals scored.
- MJL

I think those analytical stats work more for a sport such as baseball than hockey. I get some of it but to judge a players worth based on stats like Corsi is just so unwise in my opinion. Even a turnover has many aspects to it.

And this is a big reason why I feel blocked shots is an insanely overrated category. Sure it might reflect that you get a lot of D zone starts or PK time. But it 100% means youre not getting the puck out of your zone effectively.
- hereticpride

I actually don't blame Grossmann 100% for that turnover. I can't say I am thrilled with the positioning of the other 4 skaters on the ice

So wait, we're saying advanced stats are flawed because of the subjective nature of the data? Observing the game is just as subjective if not more so...what is going on here???
- NickTheKid87

No, we are saying that there needs to be both. They both can not be viewed in a vacuum. In my opinion the advanced stats guys seem to live in the vacuum more often than not. Especially when they use the same type of stats to compare two very different types of players.

I think those analytical stats work more for a sport such as baseball than hockey. I get some of it but to judge a players worth based on stats like Corsi is just so unwise in my opinion. Even a turnover has many aspects to it.
- nastyflyergirl

Have you ever looked at them closely and gotten a full understanding of them? I used to think the same thing. The more you understand them, the more things become clear

To me, it looks like he has support there... if he can just chip it up the wall, Laughton's got a 50-50 puck at the blueline. Instead of doing that, he tries the direct pass over the middle to Laughts and puts the puck behind him. It's just a bad decision, compounded by bad execution under pressure leading to a really dangerous scoring chance.
- Tomahawk

gotta say I disagree with you there

gotta say I disagree with you there
- nastyflyergirl

It's definitely open to interpretation.

Have you ever looked at them closely and gotten a full understanding of them? I used to think the same thing. The more you understand them, the more things become clear
- PhillySportsGuy

Gotta say I am insulted by that a bit. Yes I understand them. I also have been watching hockey for a LONG time, play the game and coach the game so I like to think I know what I am seeing. there is way more to the game than "advanced analytics" and just like plus minus and other stats, they are all flawed to some degree. I rather judge a player on his play and what they bring to the team. Teams are about pieces are there is a need for various types of players.

This is pretty much the best visualization for this.
- NickTheKid87

meh you need to use both to fully evaluate....Stats can tell you what to look out for when scouting. Scouting gives you the story that stats cant give...i mean look at the maple leafs...they have all the stats guys, and that whole team is starting to fall apart....stats guys can compliment scouts and help them do their job better, but not replace them.

In the end though id rather have the best scouts vs the best stats guys...

So wait, we're saying advanced stats are flawed because of the subjective nature of the data? Observing the game is just as subjective if not more so...what is going on here???
- NickTheKid87

Typical pissing contest.

If people want to like Grossmann, that's on them. I see him being a big reason they are a bad transition team, don't see him being a good enough defender to make up for that limitation and as such, don't see why or how he's held in such regard.

I use my eyes as well as stats to come to this conclusion. I don't dismiss either, because using both paints a far more clear picture. I can look at Grossmann's stats and see his CF% and other shot based metrics are bad. But I can also see how he's used and what competition he faces. But it doesn't tell me everything.

The trouble for Grossmann is, when I watch the games, I see that he's slower than most players, he's not a particularly good passer and he's not exactly comfortable with the puck on his stick. I've seen him lose positioning on plays at about an average rate, so while I wouldn't call him a bad defender, he's certainly not an exceptional one, either.

He's a hard worker, who is willing to do the nasty work-block shots, be physical, stand up for teammates. That is a very likable trait. But it doesn't erase his limitation and elevate him past physical 4-5 stay at home type, either.

Typical pissing contest.
- Jsaquella

careful

Does anyone keep up with the goals/points race? Last time I looked Stamkos was leaving Ov in the dust and now Ov is tied with him. I like both guys a lot but I choose Ovechkin over Stamkos every time. Once Ov catches fire, he's a one man wrecking crew. Malkin is another guy who needs very little help who I feel deserves more credit.

Crosby
Ovechkin
Stamkos
Malkin
Giroux

Just my opinion.
- SuperSchennBros

Not sure what this list is.

Typical pissing contest.
- Jsaquella

It was definitely more exciting when Bill was still involved.

Gotta say I am insulted by that a bit. Yes I understand them. I also have been watching hockey for a LONG time, play the game and coach the game so I like to think I know what I am seeing. there is way more to the game than "advanced analytics" and just like plus minus and other stats, they are all flawed to some degree. I rather judge a player on his play and what they bring to the team. Teams are about pieces are there is a need for various types of players.
- nastyflyergirl

This


Bottom line is that advanced stats say that play was Grossmann's fault alone. Eye test and actually watching the game say not so much. It doesn't take in to consideration the bad wrap around, the great forecheck by the LIGHTNING , the forwards leaving the zone too soon, etc etc etc.

Typical pissing contest.

If people want to like Grossmann, that's on them. I see him being a big reason they are a bad transition team, don't see him being a good enough defender to make up for that limitation and as such, don't see why or how he's held in such regard.

I use my eyes as well as stats to come to this conclusion. I don't dismiss either, because using both paints a far more clear picture. I can look at Grossmann's stats and see his CF% and other shot based metrics are bad. But I can also see how he's used and what competition he faces. But it doesn't tell me everything.

The trouble for Grossmann is, when I watch the games, I see that he's slower than most players, he's not a particularly good passer and he's not exactly comfortable with the puck on his stick. I've seen him lose positioning on plays at about an average rate, so while I wouldn't call him a bad defender, he's certainly not an exceptional one, either.

He's a hard worker, who is willing to do the nasty work-block shots, be physical, stand up for teammates. That is a very likable trait. But it doesn't erase his limitation and elevate him past physical 4-5 stay at home type, either.
- Jsaquella

I really don;t see anyone arguing for him to be more than a 4-5 stay at home type. Now if it came down to moving one of Grossmann or Schenn I would keep Schenn because of age and the fact Grossmann has had injury issues that concern me. I would not object at all to moving him at the deadline if the return is decent.

Typical pissing contest.

If people want to like Grossmann, that's on them. I see him being a big reason they are a bad transition team, don't see him being a good enough defender to make up for that limitation and as such, don't see why or how he's held in such regard.

I use my eyes as well as stats to come to this conclusion. I don't dismiss either, because using both paints a far more clear picture. I can look at Grossmann's stats and see his CF% and other shot based metrics are bad. But I can also see how he's used and what competition he faces. But it doesn't tell me everything.

The trouble for Grossmann is, when I watch the games, I see that he's slower than most players, he's not a particularly good passer and he's not exactly comfortable with the puck on his stick. I've seen him lose positioning on plays at about an average rate, so while I wouldn't call him a bad defender, he's certainly not an exceptional one, either.

He's a hard worker, who is willing to do the nasty work-block shots, be physical, stand up for teammates. That is a very likable trait. But it doesn't erase his limitation and elevate him past physical 4-5 stay at home type, either.
- Jsaquella

Which is all anyone says he is.

Gotta say I am insulted by that a bit. Yes I understand them. I also have been watching hockey for a LONG time, play the game and coach the game so I like to think I know what I am seeing. there is way more to the game than "advanced analytics" and just like plus minus and other stats, they are all flawed to some degree. I rather judge a player on his play and what they bring to the team. Teams are about pieces are there is a need for various types of players.
- nastyflyergirl

I read that post and thought Yikes.

Gotta say I am insulted by that a bit. Yes I understand them. I also have been watching hockey for a LONG time, play the game and coach the game so I like to think I know what I am seeing. there is way more to the game than "advanced analytics" and just like plus minus and other stats, they are all flawed to some degree. I rather judge a player on his play and what they bring to the team. Teams are about pieces are there is a need for various types of players.
- nastyflyergirl

It wasn't meant to be insulting. I value your opinion more than most of the ingrates here. There are just many things people have said on this thread that counter the very basic fundamentals of analytics. People use outliers to contradict trends. The whole point of advanced stats is really just to show people which end of the ice the game is being played when that one particular player is on the ice.

advanced stats say that the game is overwhelmingly being played in the Flyers end when Grossmann is on the ice despite seeing balanced zone starts and middle of the road quality of competition. He would need to be the best shot suppressing player in the history of the NHL to offset the number of shots against.

So wait, we're saying advanced stats are flawed because of the subjective nature of the data? Observing the game is just as subjective if not more so...what is going on here???
- NickTheKid87

You're correct, it is subjective, but it's still a better method then overusing analytics.

This


Bottom line is that advanced stats say that play was Grossmann's fault alone. Eye test and actually watching the game say not so much. It doesn't take in to consideration the bad wrap around, the great forecheck by the LIGHTNING , the forwards leaving the zone too soon, etc etc etc.
- MBFlyerfan

thats my point. I am in now way shape or form saying Grossmann's strengths are puck skills. Obviously that is not the case. but there is more to the game and more to each play.