Interesting point you make on Bertuzzi. He didn't paralyze Moore but definitely ended his career.

Did Moore attempt to sue the league? I cant remember.

For argument, say that Letang got all f'd up from Rinaldo's hit last night. Would he have grounds for a lawsuit claiming the NHL did nothing to deter this kind of behavior? There would certainly be ample video evidence to suggest no. Hell, all the attorney would have to do is put in any of Don Cherrys videos as evidence!
- 87_71_11_29

Every NHL player is offered medical insurance by the NHL through the NHLPA. It's like suing your company if you fell off a ladder at work. You get paid compensation. He sued Todd Bertuizzi, but not the NHL.

Interesting point you make on Bertuzzi. He didn't paralyze Moore but definitely ended his career.

Did Moore attempt to sue the league? I cant remember.

For argument, say that Letang got all f'd up from Rinaldo's hit last night. Would he have grounds for a lawsuit claiming the NHL did nothing to deter this kind of behavior? There would certainly be ample video evidence to suggest no. Hell, all the attorney would have to do is put in any of Don Cherrys videos as evidence!
- 87_71_11_29

This would all depend on the very extremely simpering Eugene Melnyk financing forensic laboratories to implicate the Penguins of criminal mischief.

The league makes money from the stories generated by the hits...in turn the players get a cut of it.

I know that seems like it's reaching but it is 100 percent true.

It's like a car crash in a NASCAR race...an expected collision. People tune in for it. People attend to see it.

Play every NHL game like an all=star game...and nobody will show up (well, less will eventually).

So the issue at hand is complex. If the league REALLY sends a message...78 game suspension...players (not just the guy suspended) will back off...but as most people involved with the sport seem to think/agree - it will likely result in a decline in the entertainment value of the games

They punish the result because of that...right?

More bush league then Emery assaulting Holtby? At least Johnson wanted to fight Haley
- Vukota

Ray Emery would have fought anyone on the Caps that day. Just ask the Sabres if Emery can fight. He went after Holtby to send a message. Sometimes it is your goalie or the leading scorer in the league that needs to drop the gloves to show they are sick of losing.

In the end it was just a fight. Stop trying to make into something other than that just because a Flyer started the fight.

The problem is that that wasn't even a fight. Voracek went straight for Scuderi, who was still playing hockey and didn't even ask him to drop them. He just wrapped his head up, dropped his gloves and started swinging well before Scuderi dropped his gloves.

I do agree fighting has a place in the game, but not this "fight" that Voracek displayed.
- znagle

I've seen this type of comment a lot. Does nobody watch the fight before saying something so specific?

If you watch the replay you will see Voracek engage Scuderi and then they tangle. Before any punches are thrown by either fighter they both have their gloves off and know what's happening. Just because Voracek initiated the fight (therefore getting 2 mins for instigating) it doesn't instantly make Scuderi a victim.

I actually think we're more or less saying the same thing, but defining terms differently.

I'm advocating an understanding prior to an incident that ensures that MAD is not required, more or less threatening MAD as opposed to engaging in it.

I also hope I didn't imply that getting beat up was similar to a flying elbow to the head. But my point was more that, you don't beat up Rinaldo, you beat up Giroux or Voracek. Even if it's only getting punched up a bit, it's still not easy for Rinaldo to have to be responsible for those guys. Kind of like if you mouthed off to a guy, and your brother had to step in and get beat up because you backed down, you're gonna feel like a piece of poop. That's what the lack of an instigator can do. It means the other team doesn't have to have a player get suspended to retaliate against your star player if you choose to take a run at someone.

Basically, let's say that, last night, Adams grabs Giroux and just starts hammering away (and gets only a fighting major), and he lets it be known that it's because of Rinaldo. I'm sure Giroux's going to rip into Rinaldo sinc ehe had to answer for Rinaldo's actions. Now, in this case, it's not a deterrent because Rinaldo had already hurt Letang. But if there was the possibility of just the fighting major, maybe Rinaldo holds back because he knows it's a possibility.
- jmatchett383

I think we get each other in so far as MAD goes.

However, I just don't see a few punches as making much of a difference. Giroux could just take a shot or two, wrestle Adams to the ice, & be done with it without any major damage being absorbed by Giroux. He might be pissed a bit, but that kinda stuff will pass. Meanwhile, Letang is still out for the rest of the game, possibly longer.

If you are going with the assumption that Giroux is going to restrain Rinaldo in the future due to having to answer for his actions, I see it only being effective if Giroux (or whoever, really) is truly placed at risk due to Rinaldo's actions. A few punches just won't do it; you need a proportional response for this type of action at issue in order to be effective. If someone elbows Giroux in the head or hacks slashes his wrist hard enough to break the bone (ie, put him out for a few weeks), then I think Giroux will restrain Rinaldo as the action is proportional to what Rinaldo did. Anything less than that and I don't see it working at all.

I mean, would you trade Voracek potentially being out for 4-6weeks for Malkin having to absorb 2 or 3 punches? I wouldn't. The injury lingers on & effects the team for weeks; the fight is over in 20s and has no real lasting effect beyond a bag of ice on the eye for a night.

Every NHL player is offered medical insurance by the NHL through the NHLPA. It's like suing your company if you fell off a ladder at work. You get paid compensation. He sued Todd Bertuizzi, but not the NHL.
- jmatchett383

He sued the Canucks as well, i believe.

I think we get each other in so far as MAD goes.

However, I just don't see a few punches as making much of a difference. Giroux could just take a shot or two, wrestle Adams to the ice, & be done with it without any major damage being absorbed by Giroux. He might be pissed a bit, but that kinda stuff will pass. Meanwhile, Letang is still out for the rest of the game, possibly longer.

If you are going with the assumption that Giroux is going to restrain Rinaldo in the future due to having to answer for his actions, I see it only being effective if Giroux (or whoever, really) is truly placed at risk due to Rinaldo's actions. A few punches just won't do it; you need a proportional response for this type of action at issue in order to be effective. If someone elbows Giroux in the head or hacks slashes his wrist hard enough to break the bone (ie, put him out for a few weeks), then I think Giroux will restrain Rinaldo as the action is proportional to what Rinaldo did. Anything less than that and I don't see it working at all.

I mean, would you trade Voracek potentially being out for 4-6weeks for Malkin having to absorb 2 or 3 punches? I wouldn't. The injury lingers on & effects the team for weeks; the fight is over in 20s and has no real lasting effect beyond a bag of ice on the eye for a night.
- s0rcerer1984

It's not about proportional response, it's about trying to deter any response due to a teammate's actions.

He sued the Canucks as well, i believe.
- s0rcerer1984

If he did, I'm going to assume he lost that one.

Edit: Unless he could prove that a member of Canucks management instructed Bertuzzi to do it.

The league is very soft and in no way sends a message that dirty hits/checks dont belong in our game. Fights are fine because two players are consenting to getting injured and roughed up, but im pretty sure All star players dont play the game to expect headshots and concussions. The NHL Department of Players Salary (sorry i meant Safety) doesnt really give a crap. less than 5 games for a headshot? Are u kidding me? Someone has concussion symtoms and is out anywhere from a month to a year, and only a 3 game (1 week suspension) or 5 game (2 weeks suspension) is handed out. It should start with 7-15 games for first timers and even longer depending on the hit and blah blah, and around 25+ after that and after a second time, 50 games, and im very serious. Volchenkov knocks out Ferland of a roster spot and his first NHL game (way to enjoy it) and only gets a mere 4 games...... Which should be 7-9 games at the least. And yeah, i think bigger fines against players and teams will give athletes and organizations a second thought before employing such garbage players. Even though I still like having an enforcer or two on the team, they still have to contribute offensively/defensively, not just scare other adults on the ice with them, thats getting very outdated now, and teams are beginning to choose skill over no-skill whatsoever now, which if it works for them then why not

It's not about proportional response, it's about trying to deter any response due to a teammate's actions.
- jmatchett383

What I'm saying is that having to fight is an insufficent deterent. How many fight filled games have we seen? All those punches have changed nothing.

Well, if a 2 and a 10 isn't a deterrent, why doesn't every team just have a guy beat up Sidney Crosby at the outset of every game? Would seem to make sense. Beat him up, and if he gets up, have the next guy do the same thing.

Also, I think Jordin Tootoo's a pretty honest player, for the most part.
- jmatchett383

That's not quite the same thing as deciding to smoke a guy in the numbers or retaliate against Bortuzzo by leaving one's feet to elbow during a power play. Neal certainly didn't care about Shawn Thornton when he kneed his fellow rat in the head. He obviously didn't care to consider someone targeting his line mate Malkin or his captain.

Rats do rattish things. The lead by rat example. The thought of Chris Dingman or Sandy McCarthy suddenly appearing to chuck the fists didn't do anything in their era, either.

The league makes money from the stories generated by the hits...in turn the players get a cut of it.

I know that seems like it's reaching but it is 100 percent true.

It's like a car crash in a NASCAR race...an expected collision. People tune in for it. People attend to see it.

Play every NHL game like an all=star game...and nobody will show up (well, less will eventually).

So the issue at hand is complex. If the league REALLY sends a message...78 game suspension...players (not just the guy suspended) will back off...but as most people involved with the sport seem to think/agree - it will likely result in a decline in the entertainment value of the games

They punish the result because of that...right?
- icedog97

yeah true but you dont need to be a jackass to play good defense. i may be in the minority, but paul martin's PKing in overtime was literally one of the highlights of the game for me.

Probably one of the best reads I have ever had on this site.

Bravo.

If he did, I'm going to assume he lost that one.

Edit: Unless he could prove that a member of Canucks management instructed Bertuzzi to do it.
- jmatchett383

Definitely a tough sell. Not that it didn't happen in some way but it's tough to prove.

It's not about who fought, I would have loved to see Bortz jump Giroux and pound him before he even has a chance to fight back.
- znagle

The only problem with that logic is the flyers would havebeen all over him instantly. Cant say the same about the pens. So rinaldo,worthless imo, takes out letang, and nobody stands up for him?! You guys need to look at your own team and wonder whats wrong with them instead of throwing darts at the flyers. The whole incident was just horrible...from the hit....to the pens hoping for a pp and not standing up for their teamate. Just sad

Good to see Letang skate this morning, but GOOD LORD, please don't play him tonight. With he All-Start break coming up? Let him rest. Make sure he's not concussed AGAIN.

If he did, I'm going to assume he lost that one.

Edit: Unless he could prove that a member of Canucks management instructed Bertuzzi to do it.
- jmatchett383

The Canucks settled with him.

"That same month, the Ontario Superior Court released statements pertaining to the lawsuit in which Bertuzzi testified that Crawford was to blame for his actions against Moore, an allegation corroborated by new Canucks general manager Dave Nonis, who was then director of hockey operations for the club. Bertuzzi claimed that the Crawford told players during the second intermission of the March 8 game that Moore needed to "pay the price" for his earlier hit against Naslund. Statements filed from Danson further claimed that Crawford had pointed to Moore's name and number on a board in the Canucks' dressing room during the intermission, calling for the players to take action. The Canucks formally denied both parties' claims, saying "At no time did the Vancouver Canucks organization or any of its management and employees, including former coach Mr. Crawford, encourage or promote the incident that occurred between Todd Bertuzzi and Steve Moore."

In lieu of the allegations against Crawford, Bertuzzi filed a third-party complaint against his former coach on March 3, 2008. He alleged that he was contractually obliged to obey Crawford and that the coach should be held personally liable for any legal damages Moore might be awarded in court. In response, Crawford formally stated that Bertuzzi acted in "direct disobedience" to orders from the bench to get off the ice before attacking Moore. The suit was settled between the two in July 2011, though details regarding the agreement were kept undisclosed to Danson and Moore. The following year, a court decision required the settlement details to be revealed as part of the Moore-Bertuzzi trial."

http://en.wikipedia.org/w...80%93Steve_Moore_incident

Ray Emery would have fought anyone on the Caps that day. Just ask the Sabres if Emery can fight. He went after Holtby to send a message. Sometimes it is your goalie or the leading scorer in the league that needs to drop the gloves to show they are sick of losing.

In the end it was just a fight. Stop trying to make into something other than that just because a Flyer started the fight.
- mickel25

Exactly! It was no different then when the Isles and Penguins brawled a few years ago. That was my point if you're gonna call the isles/pens incident bush league then the same should apply to that incident, no? It had nothing to do with the Flyers starting anything. If a Bruins fan called the isles/pens incident bush league I would have found an example using a Bruins game as well

What I'm saying is that having to fight is an insufficent deterent. How many fight filled games have we seen? All those punches have changed nothing.
- s0rcerer1984

Most of those fights are a result of one/both of the combatants' actions, not having to answer for a teammate.

I think we're just gonna disagree, which is fine with me.

Most of those fights are a result of one/both of the combatants' actions, not having to answer for a teammate.

I think we're just gonna disagree, which is fine with me.
- jmatchett383

Yeah. Still, the discussion is always worthwhile.

Good to see Letang skate this morning, but GOOD LORD, please don't play him tonight. With he All-Start break coming up? Let him rest. Make sure he's not concussed AGAIN.
- coohill

Yeah, the thought that it's a "gametime decision" is mind boggling (no pun intended). He's come back too soon from a concussion before, just give him some time off and make sure he's fine next week.

Good to see Letang skate this morning, but GOOD LORD, please don't play him tonight. With he All-Start break coming up? Let him rest. Make sure he's not concussed AGAIN.
- coohill

I definitely agree.

The Canucks settled with him.

"That same month, the Ontario Superior Court released statements pertaining to the lawsuit in which Bertuzzi testified that Crawford was to blame for his actions against Moore, an allegation corroborated by new Canucks general manager Dave Nonis, who was then director of hockey operations for the club. Bertuzzi claimed that the Crawford told players during the second intermission of the March 8 game that Moore needed to "pay the price" for his earlier hit against Naslund. Statements filed from Danson further claimed that Crawford had pointed to Moore's name and number on a board in the Canucks' dressing room during the intermission, calling for the players to take action. The Canucks formally denied both parties' claims, saying "At no time did the Vancouver Canucks organization or any of its management and employees, including former coach Mr. Crawford, encourage or promote the incident that occurred between Todd Bertuzzi and Steve Moore."

In lieu of the allegations against Crawford, Bertuzzi filed a third-party complaint against his former coach on March 3, 2008. He alleged that he was contractually obliged to obey Crawford and that the coach should be held personally liable for any legal damages Moore might be awarded in court. In response, Crawford formally stated that Bertuzzi acted in "direct disobedience" to orders from the bench to get off the ice before attacking Moore. The suit was settled between the two in July 2011, though details regarding the agreement were kept undisclosed to Danson and Moore. The following year, a court decision required the settlement details to be revealed as part of the Moore-Bertuzzi trial."

http://en.wikipedia.org/w...80%93Steve_Moore_incident
- s0rcerer1984

That sounds like a bunch of people with a he-said/she-said where all parties involved decide to settle out of court to avoid more public backlash. But, like I said, if Bertuzzi testified that Crawford made him do it, then you have grounds. I wasn't aware that he did that.

Yeah, the thought that it's a "gametime decision" is mind boggling (no pun intended). He's come back too soon from a concussion before, just give him some time off and make sure he's fine next week.
- rival22

Letang probably embellished the hit so the refs could help the Penguins even more.

Best,

Ottawa fans