that's what the Pens need to do to win: fight more, focus on throwing hits, and add dirty players. Several posters on their thread argued their biggest team weakness was that other teams crosschecked their players who had just scored goals, where Penguins were not getting these valuable crosschecks. The data confirms it:


- BulliesPhan87

Aside from (off the top of my head) Weber, Chara, Kronwall, E. Johnson, Hedman, and McDonagh, yes.
- jmatchett383

Are the only two I would agree with.

Hedman is getting their, but Buff's combo of size and tenacity are only matched by Chara and Weber IMO...

Are the only two I would agree with.

Hedman is getting their, but Buff's combo of size and tenacity are only matched by Chara and Weber IMO...
- jak521

You don't think that Kronwall has size/tenacity? Why don't you ask Havlat and Voracek.

Aside from (off the top of my head) Weber, Chara, Kronwall, E. Johnson, Hedman, and McDonagh, yes.
- jmatchett383

Chara and Weber are not just offensive defensemen, they're elite all around defensemen who are franchise defensemen. The others are not elite offensive defensemen.

Chara and Weber are not just offensive defensemen, they're elite all around defensemen who are franchise defensemen. The others are not elite offensive defensemen.
- Jsaquella

The word "elite" was not used.

Oh, so would I. Just found it funny he spent all game trying to be a physical force and intimidate the Fyers and in the end a guy 7 inches shorter and 75 lbs lighter knocked him off the puck for the GWG
- Jsaquella

little off topic, I think Giroux should've been awarded an assist on that play. I know its not part of the rules, but if you push an opposing player off the puck, and your teammate scored directly because of a good sound defensive play by a teammate, I think an assist should be awarded. just in circumstances like that though. If a teammate pushes a player off the puck while in his own defensive zone and a teammate scoops the puck up skates all the way down, maybe not so much for that. Idk. Maybe its the morning doobs making me think strange....

I agree with some of the sentiment about Byfuglien. When you take into account the cost in acquiring, his supspect defense, I'd look in another direction.
In regards to the play on the Voracek overtime goal. my view on that play is this. If you play defense long enough, plays like that are going to happen in this League. Byfuglien tried to gather the puck, to skate it out of the zone, and Giroux came in and knocked him off the puck. Sometimes you have to give credit to the opposition. My belief is that playing defense is a team effort, so my question is, even after Byfuglien got knocked off the puck, where was the support, why was Voracek able to easily walk out in front of the net, untouched? Yea, Byfuglien got knocked off the puck, but where was his support? That's life as a defenseman in the NHL sometimes.

You don't think that Kronwall has size/tenacity? Why don't you ask Havlat and Voracek.
- jmatchett383

Kronwall can throw an open ice hit on an unsuspecting player with the best of them. Aside from that, he doesnt even sniff the physical abilities that Buff possesses.

FYI: Kronwall is a smaller d-man by todays standards at 6'0 195 lbs.

Kronwall can throw an open ice hit on an unsuspecting player with the best of them. Aside from that, he doesnt even sniff the physical abilities that Buff possesses.

FYI: Kronwall is a smaller d-man by todays standards at 6'0 195 lbs.
- jak521

And Zac Rinaldo is slightly bigger than me. Not sure what size has to do with the ability to be a physical player.

And if the only thing that makes a guy a physical presence is delivering (clean) devastating open-ice hits...I'd call that a damn imposing physical presence.

Edit: What more would you like Hedman to do to make your list?

The word "elite" was not used.
- jmatchett383

I used it. Byfuglien is an elite offensive defenseman. One guy has more points over the last 5 years and it's Erik Karlsson.

Most of the other guys in the top twenty in that criteria are not physical guys, and most of the ones who are physical are just all around great defensemen. Weber, Chara, Pietrangelo, Seabrook, Doughty.

No worries, it's likely nobody but Schultz is movable this TDL... we'll probably get to enjoy this same group of lovely dmen again next season,


- Tomahawk

It's not bad enough this season is a washout, but now you are blowing up next year as well? Cold hard reality.

I used it. Byfuglien is an elite offensive defenseman. One guy has more points over the last 5 years and it's Erik Karlsson.

Most of the other guys in the top twenty in that criteria are not physical guys, and most of the ones who are physical are just all around great defensemen. Weber, Chara, Pietrangelo, Seabrook, Doughty.
- Jsaquella

Yes, but I wasn't replying to your post.

So...listing a guy who is an all-around great defenseman cannot be listed as a physical offensive player? I'm not sure what point you're making with that.

that's what the Pens need to do to win: fight more, focus on throwing hits, and add dirty players. Several posters on their thread argued their biggest team weakness was that other teams crosschecked their players who had just scored goals, where Penguins were not getting these valuable crosschecks. The data confirms it:


- BulliesPhan87

Yes, but I wasn't replying to your post.
- jmatchett383

In his original post, jak called Byfuglien a near elite offensive defenseman.

In his original post, jak called Byfuglien a near elite offensive defenseman.
- Jsaquella

This is what I was replying to, and exactly how I typed it:

Is that not the risk you have when you put a guy like that out there? He is an all-star caliber, border line elite offensive defenseman. What makes him even more captivating is that he is pretty much the only offensive d-man who is also a huge physical presence.
- jak521

He does not say elite when talking about his combo of offensive skills/physical presence.

In his original post, jak called Byfuglien a near elite offensive defenseman.
- Jsaquella

" What makes him even more captivating is that he is pretty much the only offensive d-man who is also a huge physical presence. "

Edit: Leight

And Zac Rinaldo is slightly bigger than me. Not sure what size has to do with the ability to be a physical player.

And if the only thing that makes a guy a physical presence is delivering (clean) devastating open-ice hits...I'd call that a damn imposing physical presence.

Edit: What more would you like Hedman to do to make your list?
- jmatchett383

You asked me if Kronwall didnt have size. He doesnt. He is 6 inches and 70lbs lighter than Buff.

Im not saying he doesnt have a physical presence. He does. He kills dudes pretty routinely, but its different than what Buff offers. Tenacity is different than being a very good technical hitter. Buff has that Pronger like ability to be the meanest dude around. Hell he pretty much beat Pronger at his own game in that Cup series.

All I am saying is that Buff is unique. Nobody really offers what Buff offers.

This is what I was replying to, and exactly how I typed it:



He does not say elite when talking about his combo of offensive skills/physical presence.
- jmatchett383

I should have mentioned that near elite part again then.. as it was implied.

There are many offensive d-men who can throw a hit. VERY few who dominate a game from an offensive and physical prospective at the same time.

I used it. Byfuglien is an elite offensive defenseman. One guy has more points over the last 5 years and it's Erik Karlsson.

Most of the other guys in the top twenty in that criteria are not physical guys, and most of the ones who are physical are just all around great defensemen. Weber, Chara, Pietrangelo, Seabrook, Doughty.
- Jsaquella

during that 5 year span, how much has playing forward inflated those numbers?

You asked me if Kronwall didnt have size. He doesnt. He is 6 inches and 70lbs lighter than Buff.

Im not saying he doesnt have a physical presence. He does. He kills dudes pretty routinely, but its different than what Buff offers. Tenacity is different than being a very good technical hitter. Buff has that Pronger like ability to be the meanest dude around. Hell he pretty much beat Pronger at his own game in that Cup series.

All I am saying is that Buff is unique. Nobody really offers what Buff offers.
- jak521

That is true. I should have said physicality. My bad.

And I still say that AT LEAST Weber offers exactly what Byfuglien does, but without getting off his game as much.

No worries, it's likely nobody but Schultz is movable this TDL... we'll probably get to enjoy this same group of lovely dmen again next season,


- Tomahawk

I can deal with that in 15-16 if Ghost, Morin and Hagg are all developing well in the AHL and pushing hard to get on the Flyers.

This is what I was replying to, and exactly how I typed it:



He does not say elite when talking about his combo of offensive skills/physical presence.
- jmatchett383

Is that not the risk you have when you put a guy like that out there? He is an all-star caliber, border line elite offensive defenseman. What makes him even more captivating is that he is pretty much the only offensive d-man who is also a huge physical presence.


- jak521

He called him the bolded exactly one sentence prior to the sentence you're replying to, in the same exact post.

Are you saying that in one sentence, because he didn't repeat the words "near elite", he changed his opinion...during the same post?

I can deal with that in 15-16 if Ghost, Morin and Hagg are all developing well in the AHL and pushing hard to get on the Flyers.
- Feanor

This is probably crazy, but...given his season, if he can fill out over the summer, is it possible that Sanheim makes the club full-time before those 3?

All I am saying is that Buff is unique. Nobody really offers what Buff offers.
- jak521

This is very true.

Hedman's the only guy who's natural set of tools comes close, IMO.

He called him the bolded exactly one sentence prior to the sentence you're replying to, in the same exact post.

Are you saying that in one sentence, because he didn't repeat the words "near elite", he changed his opinion...during the same post?
- Jsaquella

I'm saying that, in the sentence he wrote, he said he was the only player who was offensive and a huge physical presence. And I disagreed. See below

"Zdeno Chara is the only player in the NHL who is 6'9. In fact, he's one of the only players who's big and has won a Norris Trophy."

See how the meaning can change from one sentence to the next.