I think Schultz just might get you a second -- sounds crazy, but he has played that well
- AllInForFlyers

Take it and run.

He did well with Grossmann the one season as a shut down pair, but they haven't been able to replicate that since.
- Jsaquella

I always thought that was a fluke -- they had to be getting absolutely caved in on possession

They were not bad, but I always wondered if that was more of an optical illusion than we thought

For me it boils down to a few things.

Coburn is good when paired with a solid partner. He's a guy that has been unable to be anchor a pair, though. He tries to do too much and then makes mistakes.

The thing is, the Flyers don't really have that guy to be his partner. Even if Timonen can return and play close to where he was last season, it's likely only to be for this season.

The other issue with Coburn is, he's due for a new contract after next season, and that means a raise. If it's going to push him into the $5.5mm or more range, I have to question if he's worth it, or would the Flyers be paying a premium for another guy who isn't a number one or who can even really be effectively a strong number 2 defenseman.

EDIT: It's like the MacDonald/Grossmann/Schenn situation. I just think they end up paying too much for what the guy is if he gets to a new contract. If Amac was making $3.5mm, I wouldn't complain at all about him. If Grossmann and Schenn were at $2mm each, again, it'd be difficult to really get mad.

Avoid it if you can.

I think he might have more value as a trade chip.
- Jsaquella

If all they can get is a couple of 2nd round picks for Coburn, then there is more value in keeping him in my opinion. The Flyers could always trade him next season if his contract demands are too high. He might have even more value then as a future UFA, at next season's deadline.

Take it and run.
- jstross

I would -- I mean, seriously. Don't you just have to sell high on Schultz?

He's like found money. He's 32, 33? Still skates well, but really, don't you have to sell high?

I always thought that was a fluke -- they had to be getting absolutely caved in on possession

They were not bad, but I always wondered if that was more of an optical illusion than we thought
- AllInForFlyers

Possible. But they passed the eye test.

I'm not scapegoating anyone or trashing Coburn for the kicks, I'm trying to look at it dispassionately.

I think MDZ has been solid, but his two way game hasn't been great. If somebody offered enough, I'd be willing to deal him.

It's not that they have 7 or 8 terrible defensemen, they're all NHL level guys. But they're all secondary guys, and most are being paid a premium.

I would -- I mean, seriously. Don't you just have to sell high on Schultz?

He's like found money. He's 32, 33? Still skates well, but really, don't you have to sell high?
- AllInForFlyers

Absolutely, unless he's willing to take a fairly serious discount to stay. If he's asking for 3 years and $10mm, I'd pass. That's around what he'd cost as a UFA. If you want him at that price trade him and bid on him in the summer.

Absolutely, unless he's willing to take a fairly serious discount to stay. If he's asking for 3 years and $10mm, I'd pass. That's around what he'd cost as a UFA. If you want him at that price trade him and bid on him in the summer.
- Jsaquella

I don't know what it is because he has been good for them, but I am absolutely terrified of giving him a multiyear extension

His stride looks good, so I can't honestly say I don't think his skating will hold up. But man...i don't know. I just think I would sell high, thank him for his service, and see what else might be out there

As bad as the Flyers have been, they have more wins than the Kings

As bad as the Flyers have been, they have more wins than the Kings
- Jsaquella

They might just need to miss and recharge, deal with Richards

I don't know what it is because he has been good for them, but I am absolutely terrified of giving him a multiyear extension

His stride looks good, so I can't honestly say I don't think his skating will hold up. But man...i don't know. I just think I would sell high, thank him for his service, and see what else might be out there
- AllInForFlyers

I have concerns, too. He really struggled the past couple seasons prior to this one. He's been good for the Flyers, and he's been reliable this year. But regression is possible and at his age, they really need to be careful on term.

Possible. But they passed the eye test.

I'm not scapegoating anyone or trashing Coburn for the kicks, I'm trying to look at it dispassionately.

I think MDZ has been solid, but his two way game hasn't been great. If somebody offered enough, I'd be willing to deal him.

It's not that they have 7 or 8 terrible defensemen, they're all NHL level guys. But they're all secondary guys, and most are being paid a premium.
- Jsaquella

Ha! I go back and forth between numbers and the eye test, whichever is best for my arguments

I own this about myself

They might just need to miss and recharge, deal with Richards
- AllInForFlyers

They're really not playing well. Voynov is missed. Martinez and Muzzin haven't played anywhere near as well as they did last season or before. Quick has been up and down. The older veterans haven't played that well. It's just a mess for them this season.

They're really not playing well. Voynov is missed. Martinez and Muzzin haven't played anywhere near as well as they did last season or before. Quick has been up and down. The older veterans haven't played that well. It's just a mess for them this season.
- Jsaquella

They really do miss Voynov -- that back end is a lot less skilled and is slower without him

He has a hell of a shot, too -- he really does

Ha! I go back and forth between numbers and the eye test, whichever is best for my arguments

I own this about myself

- AllInForFlyers

I try to use both. I rarely look at stats during the games. Most advanced stats should be looked at over an extended period of time, and in conjunction with other stats.

Got to look at what role a guy is playing, who he's playing against, how a guy is being used all are factors. Look at MacDonald-last year, being used extensively against top competition and playing a ton of minutes, his possession numbers were terrible and it was easy to see where he struggled.

This season, used more judiciously, against lesser competition(based on TOI % and Corsi QoC) he's put up very solid possession numbers.

They really do miss Voynov -- that back end is a lot less skilled and is slower without him

He has a hell of a shot, too -- he really does
- AllInForFlyers

He's a really good player. They definitely miss him, but there's more going on there.

As bad as the Flyers have been, they have more wins than the Kings
- Jsaquella

this really (frank)s me up.

sucks

Mase's numbers this year are studly, and his record is below 500.

Figures the Flyers finally find their goalie and the rest of team doesn't know wtf to do with itself.

For me it boils down to a few things.

Coburn is good when paired with a solid partner. He's a guy that has been unable to be anchor a pair, though. He tries to do too much and then makes mistakes.

The thing is, the Flyers don't really have that guy to be his partner. Even if Timonen can return and play close to where he was last season, it's likely only to be for this season.

The other issue with Coburn is, he's due for a new contract after next season, and that means a raise. If it's going to push him into the $5.5mm or more range, I have to question if he's worth it, or would the Flyers be paying a premium for another guy who isn't a number one or who can even really be effectively a strong number 2 defenseman.

EDIT: It's like the MacDonald/Grossmann/Schenn situation. I just think they end up paying too much for what the guy is if he gets to a new contract. If Amac was making $3.5mm, I wouldn't complain at all about him. If Grossmann and Schenn were at $2mm each, again, it'd be difficult to really get mad.

Avoid it if you can.

I think he might have more value as a trade chip.
- Jsaquella

I think if we traded Coburn to a team like the LA Kings for a second round pick, not only do we show how much we under value him, we just handed Drew Doughty the perfect D partner and possibly handed LA another Cup. That's what I think.

I think if we traded Coburn to a team like the LA Kings for a second round pick, not only do we show how much we under value him, we just handed Drew Doughty the perfect D partner and possibly handed LA another Cup. That's what I think.
- SuperSchennBros

Good thing nobody suggested that. Huge difference between two second rounders, if both are in the top 40, and giving Coburn away for the Kings' 2nd rounder.

Good thing nobody suggested that. Huge difference between two second rounders, if both are in the top 40, and giving Coburn away for the Kings' 2nd rounder.
- Jsaquella

There is certainly a difference, but what both deals have in common is that they're both bad deals for the Flyers.