They are, no fan is ever going to become unhappy that their team won a championship in a past season, because the team is currently not playing well. That does not constitute a pass for the team.
- MJL

It does, to me.

Again, you continue to type things as facts that are on an individual fan basis due to the value to said individual.

You tried to eliminate the championship from the equation as if it never existed. Which was not part of the premise I brought up.
- MJL

My point was that the championship is all that matters. If you don't win, then I don't care how well you played. I am not happy about the 2010 Flyers season because they didn't win. If they made the SCF every year and lost, I would never be satisfied. But because the Phillies DID win, I'm okay with them playing poorly now.

So your stance is the deal for Boychuk would be bad if he walks this year even if they win a cup this year?
- J35Bacher

Winning the Cup would certainly take a lot of the sting off of it, but after the parade fever wears off, and a key player walks, yea, from a hockey standpoint, it would be a bad deal.

My point was that the championship is all that matters. If you don't win, then I don't care how well you played. I am not happy about the 2010 Flyers season because they didn't win. If they made the SCF every year and lost, I would never be satisfied. But because the Phillies DID win, I'm okay with them playing poorly now.
- jmatchett383

Again, this is a completely different conversation.

Winning the Cup would certainly take a lot of the sting off of it, but after the parade fever wears off, and a key player walks, yea, from a hockey standpoint, it would be a bad deal.
- MJL

So, technically, you should never trade draft picks because, at some point, the player is going to retire, and then you're left with no hockey player and you traded a pick/picks to get him?

I'm not going to debate the talent discrepancy between the two with you, but I think the Isles have a chance to re-sign him because of familiarity. If the Isles were still wallowing in the bottom of the conference, he likely would have needed a drastic overpayment to consider them. Instead, they've shown they can win with him and they have a young nucleus as well.

I think he'll strongly consider them if they match any other offer or exceed it. I don't think that would have been the case had they not traded for him and had success.

Top pairing defenseman are worth their weight in gold. I'd be ok with my team overpaying for one.
- PhillySportsGuy

Exactly. You overpay the guy who can handle top pair minutes. You don't overpay the guy who is a secondary guy. Simple asset management.

Right now, Andrew MacDonald has the 28th highest cap hit in the NHL for defensemen. If that's market value, you need to stay out of that market, unless he's the finishing piece to a Stanley Cup team.

It does, to me.

Again, you continue to type things as facts that are on an individual fan basis due to the value to said individual.
- jmatchett383

It is pretty much a fact. When a team wins a championship, and they struggle in seasons after that, fanbase's as a whole are unhappy about it, and there really is no pass. It's a myth.

Exactly. You overpay the guy who can handle top pair minutes. You don't overpay the guy who is a secondary guy. Simple asset management.

Right now, Andrew MacDonald has the 28th highest cap hit in the NHL for defensemen. If that's market value, you need to stay out of that market, unless he's the finishing piece to a Stanley Cup team.
- Jsaquella

Yeah, I need to get back on this direct topic.

Regardless of what happens after the season, the deal they made for Boychuk to try to get deep into the playoffs, seems like a good deal to me, and if they have to overpay to retain him, is a better deal than the one for AMac, in my eyes.

It is pretty much a fact. When a team wins a championship, and they struggle in seasons after that, fanbase's as a whole are unhappy about it, and there really is no pass. It's a myth.
- MJL

That's great.

Fans aren't mad at the phillies cause they have sucked, fans are mad at phillies because they haven't made any changes to get better. Most fans saw that the team needed a rebuild yet was trotted out as is the past few seasons just to try and sell tickets. If Rubin started the rebuild two years ago and the team had sucked, there wouldn't be as much backlash as there is now having watched a slow and painful decline without any progression for the future.

If the Flyers trot out this same team over the next couple of seasons without progression, the fans will turn on them too. Some have already.
- psuhockey

What about the World Series the Phillies won in 2008? Doesn't that buy them some leeway? The Flyers haven't won since the days of 8-tracks, bell-bottom jeans, and 53 cents per gallon gas.

My blu ray copy of Aladdin just showed up at work. Hopefully, this replaces Frozen as the movie my daughter watches over and over and over and over...

So, technically, you should never trade draft picks because, at some point, the player is going to retire, and then you're left with no hockey player and you traded a pick/picks to get him?
- jmatchett383

How long did the player play for the team, what were the results, lots of variables involved. Now you're moving the discussion off of a specific player, in a specific situation, on a specific team, and trying to offer hypothetical undefined wide ranging situations. Doesn't wash.

Exactly. You overpay the guy who can handle top pair minutes. You don't overpay the guy who is a secondary guy. Simple asset management.

Right now, Andrew MacDonald has the 28th highest cap hit in the NHL for defensemen. If that's market value, you need to stay out of that market, unless he's the finishing piece to a Stanley Cup team.
- Jsaquella

Disagree, you don't need to stay out of that market. He is signed to a 6 year deal, and a few years down the road, as the team gets better, he can be a key piece of a solid defense. Salaries will have escalated and grown, and his cap rank will be way down the list. You have to build a team before you get to the point of needing to add finsihing peices.

So, technically, you should never trade draft picks because, at some point, the player is going to retire, and then you're left with no hockey player and you traded a pick/picks to get him?
- jmatchett383

That is what I am not understanding. If the Islanders win the cup and boychuk walked the deal they made was bad because they gave up picks? Not a roster player or any prospects. Maybe it was a calculated risk because don't they also have Griffin Rhinehart, Ryan Pulock, Adam Pelech. I am not saying they can just stick one in and they are Boychuk but maybe they feel this is the chance for a cup and if it is for one year of Boychuk they figure they still have propspects since they are giving the picks up.

The issue with the Phillies is they took the good will from 2006-2011 and squandered it. If you eliminate the hope of the fans they get turned off. The losing isn't the biggest reason the attendance is down, it's that fans don't see much hope of it getting better soon.
- Jsaquella

This.

There is nothing worse than a team of vets who are terrible. People are excited about the Sixers even though they suck right now.

The Phillies are one of the worst teams in baseball and have a very weak farm system. They don't really have the money available to buy themselves out of this mess either. Fans know this is going to be a 3-5 year process before they even contend for the playoffs again. They don't even have any young players on the current team to get excited about.

My blu ray copy of Aladdin just showed up at work. Hopefully, this replaces Frozen as the movie my daughter watches over and over and over and over...
- jmatchett383

I did Aladdin, Little Mermaid and pretty much anything with signing. She likes the movies with songs so she can dance.

What about the World Series the Phillies won in 2008? Doesn't that buy them some leeway? The Flyers haven't won since the days of 8-tracks, bell-bottom jeans, and 53 cents per gallon gas.
- PLindbergh31

It does, but you have to show some level of competence after.

The Phillies had the GM who ran the show retire, and the director of scouting/assistant GM who built the farm system leave because he got passed over. The new GM has basically driven the yacht into the beach.

Fans will give you time Afters championship, but if you don't give them hope, they will eventually bail.

I did Aladdin, Little Mermaid and pretty much anything with signing. She likes the movies with songs so she can dance.
- J35Bacher

Yeah, she loves the first like 25 minutes of Frozen because of all the songs. Also a fan of Tangled and The Lion King up until the lull in the songs. Aladdin has quite a few in the beginning, so we're gonna give this a try. Little Mermaid might work, too.

This.

There is nothing worse than a team of vets who are terrible. People are excited about the Sixers even though they suck right now.

The Phillies are one of the worst teams in baseball and have a very weak farm system. They don't really have the money available to buy themselves out of this mess either. Fans know this is going to be a 3-5 year process before they even contend for the playoffs again. They don't even have any young players on the current team to get excited about.
- PhillySportsGuy

Yep, there's a plan in place and the guy running the show seems like he's smart and driven and knows how to make it work.

It does, but you have to show some level of competence after.

The Phillies had the GM who ran the show retire, and the director of scouting/assistant GM who built the farm system leave because he got passed over. The new GM has basically driven the yacht into the beach.

Fans will give you time Afters championship, but if you don't give them hope, they will eventually bail.
- Jsaquella

I think fans would have been ok if they started moving some vets after the 2009 season. Guys like Utley and Rollins and Howard. I feel the phillies waited too long and now are seeing the frustration from fans. Fans might not have loved moving utley and rollins and howard but they would have understood the reason as they were agiing. Plus at that time thye could have brough back value.

What about the World Series the Phillies won in 2008? Doesn't that buy them some leeway? The Flyers haven't won since the days of 8-tracks, bell-bottom jeans, and 53 cents per gallon gas.
- PLindbergh31

It does. However it does not allow management to put forth a dead product for two seasons in hope that nostalgia sells tickets. There is a difference between rebuilding and thus sucking versus managing a decline for profit. If the phillies blew it up two years ago and sucked as they rebuilt with younger players, there would be no ill will even if that rebuild took many years because of the championship. But the Phillies showed no attempt to realistically improve the product and instead wasted two years selling memories. That's inexcusable. Sell a plan.

How long did the player play for the team, what were the results, lots of variables involved. Now you're moving the discussion off of a specific player, in a specific situation, on a specific team, and trying to offer hypothetical undefined wide ranging situations. Doesn't wash.
- MJL

Okay...let's say the Islanders trade a 2nd for Jaromir Jagr, and he ends up being a key contributor for the team on their way to a Stanley Cup championship, and he retires. To you, that's a bad deal because they gave up a 2nd rounder for a player who only played for a partial season for them, even though they won a Cup. Correct?

I think fans would have been ok if they started moving some vets after the 2009 season. Guys like Utley and Rollins and Howard. I feel the phillies waited too long and now are seeing the frustration from fans. Fans might not have loved moving utley and rollins and howard but they would have understood the reason as they were agiing. Plus at that time thye could have brough back value.
- J35Bacher

Yep. Agreed 100%. Look at the Patriots-better to dump a guy a year too early than a year too late

It does, but you have to show some level of competence after.

The Phillies had the GM who ran the show retire, and the director of scouting/assistant GM who built the farm system leave because he got passed over. The new GM has basically driven the yacht into the beach.

Fans will give you time Afters championship, but if you don't give them hope, they will eventually bail.
- Jsaquella

I think people are annoyed because they saw this coming 3 years ago, but the Phillies didn't.

The saddest part about the team is that they don't even have the players in the organization yet that will be a part of the next winning team. Those players haven't even been drafted yet. Thats how far away they are.

I think fans would have been ok if they started moving some vets after the 2009 season. Guys like Utley and Rollins and Howard. I feel the phillies waited too long and now are seeing the frustration from fans. Fans might not have loved moving utley and rollins and howard but they would have understood the reason as they were agiing. Plus at that time thye could have brough back value.
- J35Bacher

I said, in 2008, that Utley, Howard, and Rollins could stay and go 0-for-lifetime as Phillies for the rest of their careers and I'd be okay with that. Not happy with it, but okay with it because the happiness from 2008 was worth it. I stand by that statement to this day.