Um, none? It's hockey, not some luck-based casino game.
- hardnosed

and that is why you'll never 'get on board' with the advanced stats crowd.

And thats fine.

This year our top 6 are creating a stack of chances but are not finishing like they have in the past, and it sticks out like dogs balls because our bottom 6 struggle to play in the system.
- walshy66

I guess I haven't seen this "stack" of chances.

Mostly I see unforced and forced turnovers, sitting on the perimeter, easily stifled breakouts, and some kind of weird tribute to Dean Smith's four corner offense on the power play, where you spread out and pass the ball back and forth wasting time.

Crosby and Malkin are both carrying career-low shots per game numbers this season.

I guess I haven't seen this "stack" of chances.

Mostly I see unforced and forced turnovers, sitting on the perimeter, easily stifled breakouts, and some kind of weird tribute to Dean Smith's four corner offense on the power play, where you spread out and pass the ball back and forth wasting time.

Crosby and Malkin are both carrying career-low shots per game numbers this season.
- hardnosed

I guess we look at chances differently then, because they have been creating them. I look at the process as being good.

Could it be better, yes. But its not terrible from the top 6.

I wrote about secondary scoring, you want the bottom 6 to help out when the top 6 dont contribute, that is secondary scoring.

http://hockeyhurts.com/22...what-is-secondary-scoring

our bottom 6 are not helping when the top 6 dont contribute.

its a short piece.

I guess we look at chances differently then, because they have been creating them. I look at the process as being good.

Could it be better, yes. But its not terrible from the top 6.

I wrote about secondary scoring, you want the bottom 6 to help out when the top 6 dont contribute, that is secondary scoring.

http://hockeyhurts.com/22...what-is-secondary-scoring

our bottom 6 are not helping when the top 6 dont contribute.

its a short piece.
- walshy66

There's no context. How does this compare to teams around the league? How does this compare to the Penguins historically?

Stats without context are utterly meaningless.

Maatta + Sutter + Kunitz for JVR + Polak + Winnik

I guess we look at chances differently then, because they have been creating them. I look at the process as being good.

- walshy66

Not like they have in the past. When's the last time we saw Crosby and Malkin's line light up an arena and destroy a team? It's been a long time.

Penguins have gotten a spare juicy one like Crosby's net-side chance last night. But they certainly haven't been dominating play much. Even play lately has been about the best the Penguins have mustered.

There's no context. How does this compare to teams around the league? How does this compare to the Penguins historically?

Stats without context are utterly meaningless.
- hardnosed

You're kidding me right?

I give you the context.

I define secondary scoring as your bottom 6 contributing when your top 6 dont.

In those losses you can see who does and doesnt produce.

Is the top 6 to blame if they do produce yet still lose?

Not like they have in the past. When's the last time we saw Crosby and Malkin's line light up an arena and destroy a team? It's been a long time.

Penguins have gotten a spare juicy one like Crosby's net-side chance last night. But they certainly haven't been dominating play much. Even play lately has been about the best the Penguins have mustered.
- hardnosed

not like they did in the first month of the season, totally agree with that.

I do think it is because of a lack of a threat lower in the roster, Sutter was ok early in the season, he was getting help with his production from Bennett and Spaling, because we are so thin, injuries destroy this teams depth.

it is how the team is constructed. Without injuries this system works, with injuries it does not.

So do they change the coach or do they change the roster?

Maatta + Sutter + Kunitz for JVR + Polak + Winnik
- YouMeAndDupuis9

Please don't mention Maatta's name in these trades again.

Maatta + Sutter + Kunitz for JVR + Polak + Winnik
- YouMeAndDupuis9

I know you have to give something good to get something good but I'd want a better+younger forward than JVR for Maatta....Drouin, Kucherov, Forsberg

Maatta + Sutter + Kunitz for JVR + Polak + Winnik
- YouMeAndDupuis9

Im sorry but JVR could net more w/o giving up the others....

You're kidding me right?

I give you the context.

I define secondary scoring as your bottom 6 contributing when your top 6 dont.

In those losses you can see who does and doesnt produce.

Is the top 6 to blame if they do produce yet still lose?
- walshy66

I'm not asking for definitions.

By context I mean, what kind of secondary bottom six scoring do other teams, or previous Penguins team (whether they were deep or not) get from their bottom six in losses?

Without knowing that these numbers don't have meaning.

Please don't mention Maatta's name in these trades again.
- ImScore71

lol, nobody wants to trade Maatta. Toronto could pull a Buffalo-like move in rebuilding for next year and we get a power forward on one of the best contracts in the NHL..plus two pieces that could help us this year. I dont know that it works cap wise but its fairly close... That would be one heck of a shakeup. Id prefer the below deal much more but was trying to go fair value with the last one

Maatta + Sutter + Bennett + Scuderi for JVR + Bozak + Winnik or Polak

lol, nobody wants to trade Maatta. Toronto could pull a Buffalo-like move in rebuilding for next year and we get a power forward on one of the best contracts in the NHL..plus two pieces that could help us this year. I dont know that it works cap wise but its fairly close... That would be one heck of a shakeup. Id prefer the below deal much more but was trying to go fair value with the last one

Maatta + Sutter + Bennett + Scuderi for JVR + Bozak + Winnik or Polak
- YouMeAndDupuis9

ur funny.....

Im sorry but JVR could net more w/o giving up the others....
- Ur Not Me

Maatta has higher value than JVR imo. Especially to a rebuild team like Toronto

I do think it is because of a lack of a threat lower in the roster, Sutter was ok early in the season, he was getting help with his production from Bennett and Spaling, because we are so thin, injuries destroy this teams depth.
- walshy66

Geno and Sid are at career lows for points per game, career lows for shots per game, and somehow that's Sutter's fault?!?

it is how the team is constructed. Without injuries this system works, with injuries it does not.

The first two lines are injury-free, yet those lines still aren't working.

I don't believe that the system is any improvement on the previous system. Just a different kind of easy to stop breakout, and a system that is easily exposed by clogging the neutral zone.

I'm not asking for definitions.

By context I mean, what kind of secondary bottom six scoring do other teams, or previous Penguins team (whether they were deep or not) get from their bottom six in losses?

Without knowing that these numbers don't have meaning.
- hardnosed

right....

Are we worried about how other Pens teams have gone when they have not won? Or looking at this season?

When they win you either get balanced scoring, help from your secondary scoring or your top 6 do it all for you.

We all love it when they win.

So lets look at what happens when they lose. Most are blaming the top 6 for not carrying the team.

I love this sport because you need 20 players to contribute, its not basketball or baseball or football where a select few can do it all.

So if you are losing and your top 6 are producing, yet your bottom 6 aren't where is the issue in the losses?

It doesnt matter what other teams are doing when they lose, their rosters are constructed differently to this one.

If you want to go and blame the losses on the the stars, thats fine, but beyond the eye test (and it has looked bad the past month) they are putting up points, and doing well in the fancy stats. I'm not sure what else they can do to carry a team in a sport that requires 18 skaters to carry the workload now.

ur funny.....
- Ur Not Me

Not really putting a ton of thought into these, but based around JvR and Maatta and see what everyone else thinks.

Maatta has higher value than JVR imo. Especially to a rebuild team like Toronto
- YouMeAndDupuis9

No way, sorry dude, i like Maata but he's only 1 year into league now u think he's OEL?? C'mon for a young PWF w/a cap friendly contract... really??

Not really putting a ton of thought into these, but based around JvR and Maatta and see what everyone else thinks.
- YouMeAndDupuis9

JVR is a piece u build around bc of his contract & production, its not his fault the Leafs stink....

Geno and Sid are at career lows for points per game, career lows for shots per game, and somehow that's Sutter's fault?!?



The first two lines are injury-free, yet those lines still aren't working.

I don't believe that the system is any improvement on the previous system. Just a different kind of easy to stop breakout, and a system that is easily exposed by clogging the neutral zone.
- hardnosed

They are also at career lows for time on ice.

I am almost certain with the PP the way it is they will be at a career low for that. That right there is the difference between being league leading in points and where they are right now.

You have not heard me say the pp is any good, all of the advanced stats are from ev strength.

So you get the pp to produce and it has not, they have some serious mental problems wanting to shoot the puck its baffling.

But 5 on 5 the top 6 have been fine.

The pk with its 'specialists' are starting to crack, you know why? Because MAF is starting to regress back to something more sustainable for his save %. What is great is MAF is still league leading in his save % on the PK.

If he goes cold on the PK suddenly those specialists are useless.

The bottom 6 are to blame for a lot of the losses, they dont produce when the top 6 dont. If we win because they do produce and top 6 dont, that is awesome but the losses are starting to rack up and the bottom 6 are not helping the top 6 when they falter.

My suggestion for the next coach of the Penguins: Stannis of the House Baratheon, First of His Name, King of the Andals and the First Men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms and Protector of the Realm.



His Grace gives no (frank)s. His Grace survived a siege by eating rats and leather. His Grace's seed made a demon. That demon killed His Grace's younger brother after he made a claim for His Grace's throne. His Grace gives no (frank)s. Go Pens.
- Johnny Wrath

And he doesn't like cats either. He's got my vote.

The point was that all teams are carried by their top two lines. If you ran these stats with other teams you'd see similar patterns.

If you want to go and blame the losses on the the stars, thats fine, but beyond the eye test (and it has looked bad the past month) they are putting up points, and doing well in the fancy stats. I'm not sure what else they can do to carry a team in a sport that requires 18 skaters to carry the workload now.
- walshy66

I'm not blaming anybody, just pointing out the obvious - Geno has four points in his last 10 games. Crosby has seven points in his last 13.

What is a more reasonable expectation? That Crosby and Malkin score a little more than a half a point a game pace, or for the third line to suddenly become a 60 goal a season juggernaut?

Sutter and company are a little short of where I'd want them to be productivity wise. Malkin and Crosby are a LONG way from where I'd want them to be.

Crosby is SEVENTH in the scoring race despite being healthy (except for mumps) this year! I don't mean to yell, but HOW IS THIS NOT A MAJOR PROBLEM!!!!!!!!!

The point was that all teams are carried by their top two lines. If you ran these stats with other teams you'd see similar patterns.



I'm not blaming anybody, just pointing out the obvious - Geno has four points in his last 10 games. Crosby has seven points in his last 13.

What is a more reasonable expectation? That Crosby and Malkin score a little more than a half a point a game pace, or for the third line to suddenly become a 60 goal a season juggernaut?

Sutter and company are a little short of where I'd want them to be productivity wise. Malkin and Crosby are a LONG way from where I'd want them to be.

Crosby is SEVENTH in the scoring race despite being healthy (except for mumps) this year! I don't mean to yell, but HOW IS THIS NOT A MAJOR PROBLEM!!!!!!!!!
- hardnosed

If you're gonna pay star players star money, they need to play like stars. 71 has his share of the blame.

Thinking that someone Sutter is going to magically carry the team when 87 and 71 are shut down is just silly. You get what you pay for, or in Sutters case, overpay for. Same goes for the rest of the bottom 6.

So 10 days left...