The point was that all teams are carried by their top two lines. If you ran these stats with other teams you'd see similar patterns.



I'm not blaming anybody, just pointing out the obvious - Geno has four points in his last 10 games. Crosby has seven points in his last 13.

What is a more reasonable expectation? That Crosby and Malkin score a little more than a half a point a game pace, or for the third line to suddenly become a 60 goal a season juggernaut?

Sutter and company are a little short of where I'd want them to be productivity wise. Malkin and Crosby are a LONG way from where I'd want them to be.

Crosby is SEVENTH in the scoring race despite being healthy (except for mumps) this year! I don't mean to yell, but HOW IS THIS NOT A MAJOR PROBLEM!!!!!!!!!
- hardnosed

I see your issue, but their pp issues are where that gap in production is. Not their even strength production.

Get it producing around 20-25% for the playoffs and they'll be fine.

If the pk manages to stay top 5 for the playoffs then it will all be about ev strength production.

I think we all agree the pp both units need to shoot the puck, the globetrotter passing is just stupid.

The point was that all teams are carried by their top two lines. If you ran these stats with other teams you'd see similar patterns.



I'm not blaming anybody, just pointing out the obvious - Geno has four points in his last 10 games. Crosby has seven points in his last 13.

What is a more reasonable expectation? That Crosby and Malkin score a little more than a half a point a game pace, or for the third line to suddenly become a 60 goal a season juggernaut?

Sutter and company are a little short of where I'd want them to be productivity wise. Malkin and Crosby are a LONG way from where I'd want them to be.

Crosby is SEVENTH in the scoring race despite being healthy (except for mumps) this year! I don't mean to yell, but HOW IS THIS NOT A MAJOR PROBLEM!!!!!!!!!
- hardnosed

I don't need sutter to score at that pace. Just create chances better than a replacement forward and not give up so many chances. I don't even want him to be Staal.

I don't need sutter to score at that pace. Just create chances better than a replacement forward and not give up so many chances. I don't even want him to be Staal.
- walshy66

Like you already said, I could care less about all that. Especially with a stat that penalizes Sutter for blocking a shot or forcing a shot off target or forcing a harmless shot from the perimeter. He's allowing fewer goals while on the ice than Malkin and Crosby.

And while I'm on it (this isn't addressed to you, but in general), if "usage" is so important, how come nobody ever brings up Sutter's zone start %?

Is that an admission that zone start % is meaningless, or another example of cherry picking?!?

Like you already said, I could care less about all that. Especially with a stat that penalizes Sutter for blocking a shot or forcing a shot off target or forcing a harmless shot from the perimeter. He's allowing fewer goals while on the ice than Malkin and Crosby.

And while I'm on it (this isn't addressed to you, but in general), if "usage" is so important, how come nobody ever brings up Sutter's zone start %?

Is that an admission that zone start % is meaningless, or another example of cherry picking?!?
- hardnosed

I think zone starts are important to work out the usage of a player. But if Sutter is being used as your 3rd line center I want him to be able to suppress shots against. Because that is the role he has been put in.

He has not been able to do that all year, no matter who he has played with. He gives up more chances than he creates, and relative to the rest of the team too.

So if you think about who he is playing against, he is giving up shots against the other teams best players. Is that a recipe for success? I wouldnt think so.

Its one of the reasons I was high on Goc, he couldn't produce any offense, but he did reduce the offense of the other team when they were on the ice.

So like I said before less chances of a goal off a skate or someones ass, and in the playoffs that is how a fair portion of goals are scored.

I can see your side of the coin, I do, but I do think that even strength the top 6 are performing and the bottom 6 are not.

The top 6 need to work out their pp, and if the pk keeps giving up more chances then they will have more goals scored on them because MAF is already killing it in SV% on the pk.

Special teams will either be the savior or the death of this team this year, and it will be because their 5 on 5 line up is so unbalanced.

No way, sorry dude, i like Maata but he's only 1 year into league now u think he's OEL?? C'mon for a young PWF w/a cap friendly contract... really??
- Ur Not Me

He's a top pairing defenseman (on a contender) on an ELC at WORST case. He's already proven that. So you have a guaranteed top pairing defenseman with the upside and potential to be the next Lidstrom. In my eyes, that's more valuable than a winger.

One secondary assist in 11 games.
- hardnosed

We don't care about things like that, how does his hero chart look?

So 10 days left...
- nh4442

I always love trade deadline time...this one will be interesting before. I'm half scared that GMJR makes a kneejerk reaction trade if we lose tomorrow...but half excited because I do think some sort of wake up call is needed.

We don't care about things like that, how does his hero chart look?
- Aussiepenguin

Well you have to be fair if you're comparing Goc's point totals as part of the Blues. What is Sutter's point totals in that same time period. Then factor in he is on the third line (not the 4th line with guys that never score) and being paid 3x as much money.

You're kidding me right?

I give you the context.

I define secondary scoring as your bottom 6 contributing when your top 6 dont.

In those losses you can see who does and doesnt produce.

Is the top 6 to blame if they do produce yet still lose?
- walshy66

And how is D defined when scoring - at the Pens it's not because they don't (frank)in score!

He's a top pairing defenseman (on a contender) on an ELC at WORST case. He's already proven that. So you have a guaranteed top pairing defenseman with the upside and potential to be the next Lidstrom. In my eyes, that's more valuable than a winger.
- YouMeAndDupuis9

agreed. I wouldn't move Maatta for a 30 goal scorer... Boston may be a good partner to make a hockey deal with(excluding Maatta). They are struggling worse than us. Maybe something involving Reilly Smith?

Well you have to be fair if you're comparing Goc's point totals as part of the Blues. What is Sutter's point totals in that same time period. Then factor in he is on the third line (not the 4th line with guys that never score) and being paid 3x as much money.
- YouMeAndDupuis9

The whole question revolves around the advanced stats metrics saying Goc could be a 3rd C. I am curious on how his stats are now in another team. Every man & his dog that knows stats is crying about how bad the bottom 6 stats are. Well, Goc has moved on are his stats any better or are the blues in the same dungeon of worthlessness as us in regards to bottom 6? Having great Corsi numbers or possession numbers does not help if the guys around you don't score or you don't (as Goc hasn't), & scoring is what is required. Same can be said for Lappy - how many points to date with the Pens? 1 I think which is the same as Goc - wtf? they have the same point totals!

agreed. I wouldn't move Maatta for a 30 goal scorer... Boston may be a good partner to make a hockey deal with(excluding Maatta). They are struggling worse than us. Maybe something involving Reilly Smith?
- willi

I get u/some having the Maata love, but ur saying u rather not trade him for JVR (but i dont see TOR doing it anyway) but rather trade him for Reilly Smith (which JVR is much better than) ..... Im lost now.....

He's a top pairing defenseman (on a contender) on an ELC at WORST case. He's already proven that. So you have a guaranteed top pairing defenseman with the upside and potential to be the next Lidstrom. In my eyes, that's more valuable than a winger.
- YouMeAndDupuis9

But thats ur team bc u really lack dmen since u lost 2 this past season? right?
He filled in brilliantly last year and has been injured mostly this year, so we are automatically going to assume he's Lindstrom now??? really??? wow

I didnt know 1yr of service time in NHL practically gives u super-star status...

So 5 different D got on the board for the Blues & a couple were goals. If they step up it doesn't matter if the 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th lines don't because goals get scored & when that happens good chance you win.

Islanders had 3 yesterday & Blues today, just a point that nobody but a bloke from down under seems to pay attention to. People we have all seen the hero charts for guys that are available can we see the same within our team on D compared to a couple of others in a similar situation.

The nail can only be hit so many times before the wood begins to fracture - why you ask? Because the nail that has been hit is in place & it's time to move on to the next 1. A different 1. Dead horse gif required OR #Jagrwatch hasn't been heard for 15 minutes. Just quietly - Jagr 2 NHL playoffs series in 9 years, 8 points in 11 games & 11 points in 22 games. We really need him!

hey that still hurts....


- walshy66

Lol, you got us back two years ago

I get u/some having the Maata love, but ur saying u rather not trade him for JVR (but i dont see TOR doing it anyway) but rather trade him for Reilly Smith (which JVR is much better than) ..... Im lost now.....
- Ur Not Me

I said a Boston trade excluding Maatta....hopefully that helps you

I said a Boston trade excluding Maatta....hopefully that helps you
- willi

my bad .....

But thats ur team bc u really lack dmen since u lost 2 this past season? right?
He filled in brilliantly last year and has been injured mostly this year, so we are automatically going to assume he's Lindstrom now??? really??? wow

I didnt know 1yr of service time in NHL practically gives u super-star status...
- Ur Not Me

No not really. Even at the start of this year he was on the top pairing ahead of Martin and Ehrhoff.

No we don't automatically assume he's the next Lidstrom but he has that kind of potential, hes still on his ELC, and again...1 year is enough to prove he is an NHL top pairing D-man...

that's all I'm saying, its not far-fetched

I said a Boston trade excluding Maatta....hopefully that helps you
- willi

What would Boston want from us though? D prospects?

can't sleep...thinking about where Kunitz could potentially work...I think WPG might be a team that would like Kunitz (not sure of their cap situation after the big trade) but what about...

Kunitz and Bortuzzo to WPG for two of Burmistrov / Frolik / Peluso /Perreault

(love to have Lowry but we wont get him in that kind of deal)

On another note, the Hawks season is not unlike our own - pretty up & down, inconsistent & not really showing any sort of form that will make them WCF winners.

can't sleep...thinking about where Kunitz could potentially work...I think WPG might be a team that would like Kunitz (not sure of their cap situation after the big trade) but what about...

Kunitz and Bortuzzo to WPG for two of Burmistrov / Frolik / Peluso /Perreault

(love to have Lowry but we wont get him in that kind of deal)
- YouMeAndDupuis9

You dont have Crosby PJ's do you? I'm starting to get a little concerned if you do.

You dont have Crosby PJ's do you? I'm starting to get a little concerned if you do.
- Aussiepenguin

Just a Penguins snuggie...does that count?

Just a Penguins snuggie...does that count?
- YouMeAndDupuis9

Isn't a snuggie trying to be everything? It counts for sure.

This team lacks heart and Leadership.

I'd trade for Richards (with salary retained). He'd be an ideal 3rd liner for this team.

Actually Scuderi/Spaling for Richards ($2M retained) and Sutter+ for Glencross would make our team a lot better on the Leadership front.