Not at all.
However, fairness says that players should be evaluated on how they played, all by the same standard.
If they play well, give them credit.
If poorly, say it.
- strongsupporter

The whole team is playing like a steaming pile of poop, other than what...10 solid games this season?

So you are choosing to overlook the fact that both goalies carried the team during those stretches you listed and blaming Gorges solely for the rest...got it!
- Stripes77

i didn't blame Gorges for anything.
I just said he has played poorly and is getting a free ride.

"@WGR550 I hope those that are praying for "the tank" don't get to see the Sabres finish 30th.
Have some pride for Christs sake."
- stashu

I'm not a god guy at all and sure I would love to see the town hopping again, going to the bar in shorts and a t-shirt to watch some spring time playoff hockey with that knot in your gut and a little sweat in the palms!! But really, if the Sabres are in your prayers you really do have issues.

The whole team is playing like a steaming pile of poop, other than what...10 solid games this season?
- stashu

That is fine.
But there are apologists who say Gorges played well.
He has not.
My only point.

I feel Buffalo and Murray in general is getting way to much flack. I hate watching teams I love lose as much as the next guy, but with the exception of last year, if you enjoy watching a team finish just outside the playoffs every season then you're nuts.

In what way are we icing the worst team we can? It's all we have! We have young guys in the AHL, but its questionable if they are ready for the big time with the exception of Pysyk and MAYBE Grigorenko. I don't see an intentional tank. I see a team that has a lot of talent in the pipeline and not much on the ice. Outside of our D (excluding the Andre's) we have an awful bunch of forwards. Gionta/Moulson/Girgs need better players up front than 3rd and 4th line workhorses.

Trading off UFA's isn't committing to tanking, its committing to getting some sort of return on players than most likely won't be back.

Darcy tried for years to add to our core with guys like Erhoff and it just didn't work. I don't know about you guys, but if this is the path that leads to no more middling for season on end than so be it. Arizona seems like a team committed to loosing for McEichel. The sabres are committed to building a great team for the future and it happens that path also may lead us through McEichel.

Not at all.
However, fairness says that players should be evaluated on how they played, all by the same standard.
If they play well, give them credit.
If poorly, say it.
- strongsupporter

But you're doing the opposite of that by listing the teams GAA average when he was out and not stating what everyone knows that the goalies save percentage over that time was crazy. In fact the goalies faced more shots in Gorges absence but look at GAA and plus minus to base your judgement. You know stats that never tell the whole story.

But you're doing the opposite of that by listing the teams GAA average when he was out and not stating what everyone knows that the goalies save percentage over that time was crazy. In fact the goalies faced more shots in Gorges absence but look at GAA and plus minus to base your judgement. You know stats that never tell the whole story.
- Stripes77

So use the whole season.
Same for all players.
He still played poorly.

That is fine.
But there are apologists who say Gorges played well.
He has not.
My only point.
- strongsupporter

Call me an "apologist" then...I think the guy still has it and is suffering on a poop team - just like the rest of the team is. +/- is such a horrible stat in any sense of it's usage

I'm no analytics guru, but my guess is that Gorges has faced tougher guys to defend against, and with this roster of amazing d-men, he's likely being left in the lurch more often than others. His +/- likely is stacking up and looking worse than others because it may be -10 with Benoit, -12 with Meszaros, etc

Cool story, bro...

Seriously though, this isn't life, this is a game, so it's not a knock on anyone's upbringing - I find that argument very disjointed.
- stashu

I guess you had to be there.

So use the whole season.
Same for all players.
He still played poorly.
- strongsupporter

Nobody is saying he played well. The TEAM is in last place. You cherry picked stats when he was out.

The whole team played bad minus the goalies in those two stretches. Gorges is not someone I'm worried about.

I guess you had to be there.
- Buffalo-Sabres

haha, nah, just messing with ya about the background. Just find comparing integrity and how a human being is raised in comparison to some ethical utopia of a sports franchise a bit nuts.

Call me an "apologist" then...I think the guy still has it and is suffering on a poop team - just like the rest of the team is. +/- is such a horrible stat in any sense of it's usage

I'm no analytics guru, but my guess is that Gorges has faced tougher guys to defend against, and with this roster of amazing d-men, he's likely being left in the lurch more often than others. His +/- likely is stacking up and looking worse than others because it may be -10 with Benoit, -12 with Meszaros, etc
- stashu

You are definitely an 'apologist'.
He still played poorly.
Be interesting to see when he played with those two players.
I don't believe he has and he was certainly nowhere near those stats with them.
All I am saying is to be fair.
He has not played well and is still getting a free ride.

Who's starting for us tonight in goal?

Who's starting for us tonight in goal?
- beargk

Lindback

Lindback
- BuffaloHardHat

Have a feeling he is going to play over his head

So use the whole season.
Same for all players.
He still played poorly.
- strongsupporter

I'm not one that is going to ride the Gorges bandwagon.
I did not like what I saw from him this year, not for a 2nd round pick anyway, I will say that much.
I just hope he can bounce back and live up to his 3.9 mill cap hit next season.

Have a feeling he is going to play over his head
- beargk

Wouldn't surprise me after all, he is fighting for his NHL life at the moment.

You are definitely an 'apologist'.
He still played poorly.
Be interesting to see when he played with those two players.
I don't believe he has and he was certainly nowhere near those stats with them.
All I am saying is to be fair.
He has not played well and is still getting a free ride.
- strongsupporter

I think it's crazy to say anyone on this roster is getting a "free ride", other than the goalies who were here having to play behind the crap that is on the ice with them.

In an effort to see how Gorges has gotten his -28 rating, I found 4 games this season where he was -3 in each.

Vs. pittsburgh he was on the ice for EVERY goal against (6 goals). The other "coincidence"? Crosby with assists on 5 of them and Malkin scored the 6th (EN goal). In net? Enroth and an .846 Save %

Vs. Ottawa he was on the ice for 3 goals against - 2 were part of Bobby Ryan's hat trick that night and the 3rd was an EN goal (Former Norris winner Erik Karlsson on the ice for the 2 Ryan goals as well)

Vs. Devils he was on the ice for 3 goals against (look, another EN goal too) where Elias and Zajac were awarded points for the 2 EV goals

Vs. Minnesota, in a 7-0 award winning performance by Enroth (.811 Save %), Gorges was on the ice for 3 goals - Parise and Pominville took part in 2 of the 3

Now I'm curious as to how many EN goals he has been on the ice for after going through just 4 games...

Lindback
- BuffaloHardHat

Phewwwwwww!!!! My fist BAN and it had to land on TRADE-DEADLINE DAY!

I shall wear my first Ban as a badge of honor!

My reading comprehension has soured over the past 2 days during my punishment, handed out by an unknown source. But thank you to Stashu for taking the time to respond to my message, and trying to explain how the "BAN" process works.

I feel like I was in the O-Zone trying to start a cycle, when I was bumped by a large defensemen with cement for skates, then slide into the other teams All-Star and gently nudged him, unfortunately he went head first through the glass and I had to sit with Brendan Shannahan and listen to him explain how dangerous that was!

I do not for the life of me understand how expanding/changing the lottery odds shames a tanking team. Who is it supposed to deter?

Projected, season long bottom feeders? "Hey, you're a bad team. There are 3 slots the worst teams in the league get a chance to be picked for. Get better, or you might not be one of them, but if you get better you might also not be one of them, so integrity!"

Is it supposed to deter borderlines that fall into mediocrity, and just decide to commit full tank? An 8th-11th place team that just hara-kiri's starting in February, to finish last? The proposed changes dont preclude anyone from tanking for a greater percentage in a 3 slot lottery. It actually makes it easier for a lot more teams to tank less obviously, which is apparently a better solution than the 3 teams projected to be bottom feeders actually ending up there? Do we just want tank jobs to be competitive, instead of eliminated?

I just don't imagine a GM that wants to remain employed very long would actively strive for a categorically futile run (although it did keep Regier employed for 16 years...) for a spot that turns into a first round elimination, for a single-digit % chance at the lotto. The fixes people suggest dont ever change the reality they all seem to be mad at.

Shy of a bottom, idk 6?, tournament where the worst teams compete against each other to win the lotto spot, how do you ever get rid of the 'tank?' Are tanking for the bottom 3 and tanking for last place that substantively different? Even in this scenario, you'd need to hold two playoffs... one for the Cup, one for 1st overall. There isnt enough year-to-year draft fanfare to warrant it, and even if threre was, a Kings/Stars/Caps team that slips up late, will end up drafting first overall most years.

I just dont get the outrage over a team that is finishing about where it was projected to, because they didn't trade the futures they do have for, who, Curtis (frank)ing Glencross? He's the missing championship piece? Gimme a break.

C'mon Pierce we all know damned well that Murray is doing his best to flush a turd.
The entire North American continent knows this.
Heck, some of Europe probably does as well.
- BuffaloHardHat

What could he have done differently? He traded Miller, Ott, and Moulson last year. All UFAs. He got good value on those moves. He picked up some vets who haven't performed, to be sure. Then he Traded Myers, who you didn't even like, Stafford, another UFA, and two prospects for Kane and Bogosian. You can argue he overpaid, but that remains to be seen. He traded Enroth, Neuvirth, Mitchell, and Stewart. All UFAs. The only player with term he traded was a 4th line winger.

I do not for the life of me understand how expanding/changing the lottery odds shames a tanking team. Who is it supposed to deter?

Projected, season long bottom feeders? "Hey, you're a bad team. There are 3 slots the worst teams in the league get a chance to be picked for. Get better, or you might not be one of them, but if you get better you might also not be one of them, so integrity!"

Is it supposed to deter borderlines that fall into mediocrity, and just decide to commit full tank? An 8th-11th place team that just hara-kiri's starting in February, to finish last? The proposed changes dont preclude anyone from tanking for a greater percentage in a 3 slot lottery. It actually makes it easier for a lot more teams to tank less obviously, which is apparently a better solution than the 3 teams projected to be bottom feeders actually ending up there? Do we just want tank jobs to be competitive, instead of eliminated?

I just don't imagine a GM that wants to remain employed very long would actively strive for a categorically futile run (although it did keep Regier employed for 16 years...) for a spot that turns into a first round elimination, for a single-digit % chance at the lotto. The fixes people suggest dont ever change the reality they all seem to be mad at.

Shy of a bottom, idk 6?, tournament where the worst teams compete against each other to win the lotto spot, how do you ever get rid of the 'tank?' Are tanking for the bottom 3 and tanking for last place that substantively different? Even in this scenario, you'd need to hold two playoffs... one for the Cup, one for 1st overall. There isnt enough year-to-year draft fanfare to warrant it, and even if threre was, a Kings/Stars/Caps team that slips up late, will end up drafting first overall most years.

I just dont get the outrage over a team that is finishing about where it was projected to, because they didn't trade the futures they do have for, who, Curtis (frank)ing Glencross? He's the missing championship piece? Gimme a break.
- millsp30

Why didn't Bucky ask DR after trading Pomminville, Miller, Vanek, Ott, let Paille walk, didn't like the General McArthur, traded Soupy, let Briere and Drury Walk, "How did you make the Sabres a Better team today?"

Why didn't Bucky ask DR after trading Pomminville, Miller, Vanek, Ott, let Paille walk, didn't like the General McArthur, traded Soupy, let Briere and Drury Walk, "How did you make the Sabres a Better team today?"


- MEBSabresFAN

See my above reply, and give it to yourself as well.

What could he have done differently? He traded Miller, Ott, and Moulson last year. All UFAs. He got good value on those moves. He picked up some vets who haven't performed, to be sure. Then he Traded Myers, who you didn't even like, Stafford, another UFA, and two prospects for Kane and Bogosian. You can argue he overpaid, but that remains to be seen. He traded Enroth, Neuvirth, Mitchell, and Stewart. All UFAs. The only player with term he traded was a 4th line winger.
- Pierceme69

I will tread very softly here, but you will not receive an answer to your inquiry