Oh did they trade both their starters in those 2 years for absolute garbage returns? I forget?
- Cush29

There is rarely a market for goalies, thus they are never at a premium. See Miller, Ryan trade for example. If they had gotten a second rounder instead of a third would that have been acceptable for you?

The fact several Buffalo fans have jumped on here to call me a hypocrite (that's a joke in itself if you look where the Leafs have finished traditionally in their playoff drought and what they have done trade wise but I digress) is pretty funny.

The poster who said Buffalo has "plausible deniability" because they were last place last year and have been bad all year? Really? You need to watch less house of cards, and take a look at the trades and returns your GM has made and ask yourself if these were trades they can actually justify as good hockey trades and not tank hockey trades. The answer is pretty clear.

I didn't spout off that the Leafs would win anything....you want to paint all Leaf fans with the brush that's closest to you and the most stereotypical then hey fill your boots...you sound angry about alot but your comment that Toronto can't even get tanking right says it all.

Congrats Buffalo for being the best at tanking.....I repeat myself.

I think Tanking is a joke, and a disgrace period.

Oh and your McDavid jersey sure will look funny when he's playing in the Arizona wont' iT?

IF we are going to just paint fans in stereotypical broad strokes & you want me to engage then........OK Buffalo "we aren't cheaters, we aren't tankers, we will get McDavid, everyone else does it (even if they don't) so don't hate us because we got it right" fans I hope your 4th overall pick is a dud.

I hope you enjoy the trip down the QEW to the Hockey Universe of the world where every kid dreams of playing and every UFA wants to play to come to the ACC and join us in Leafs Nation amongst the Sea of Blue to watch McDavid wearing his Leafs Jersey (the one he grew up dreaming of wearing) get a hatty to beat your Sabres with your 4th string AHL goalie in net while you "tank the best" again for the next few years and Toronto plans the parade.

If you wanna hate me I might was well give you everything you need to do so and then some.

Enjoy!
- Cush29

Now hang on in all fairness, I didn't call you a hypocrite just instructed you get off your high horse.


A statement I stand by. I get it, you feel he let two good goalies go for NOTHING. I feel he could have gotten more, but he didn't. He got third and fourth round picks for them in future drafts. Still more than he gets if they walk out the door for nothing. Sure it wasn't much, but I was also in the camp (wasn't posting at this time) of the MASSIVE OVERPAYMENT for Myers man I was wrong. But if we realistically look at what Myers fetched, a hot commodity, should we be surprised with what Enroth and Neuvirth got? I'm with you that those moves were perplexing, but if he got all he could I'm OK with it.

However,
You still didn't answer my question.

You're team is in 30th place, you know they aren't going anywhere. You can lose all your FA's or get something for them what do you do? Do you really think Murray had better offers for both those players but let them go for nothing? They were FA's, he stated at the beginning of the year, he's not letting FA's go for nothing. Why sign a guy if he can get you something, ANYTHING, by trading him if you're not a good team? The Sabres need WAY more than a goalie to win. I just don't see how you can do anything different.

And apparently, neither do you. That's why you didn't answer.

The fact several Buffalo fans have jumped on here to call me a hypocrite (that's a joke in itself if you look where the Leafs have finished traditionally in their playoff drought and what they have done trade wise but I digress) is pretty funny.

The poster who said Buffalo has "plausible deniability" because they were last place last year and have been bad all year? Really? You need to watch less house of cards, and take a look at the trades and returns your GM has made and ask yourself if these were trades they can actually justify as good hockey trades and not tank hockey trades. The answer is pretty clear.

I didn't spout off that the Leafs would win anything....you want to paint all Leaf fans with the brush that's closest to you and the most stereotypical then hey fill your boots...you sound angry about alot but your comment that Toronto can't even get tanking right says it all.

Congrats Buffalo for being the best at tanking.....I repeat myself.

I think Tanking is a joke, and a disgrace period.

Oh and your McDavid jersey sure will look funny when he's playing in the Arizona wont' iT?

IF we are going to just paint fans in stereotypical broad strokes & you want me to engage then........OK Buffalo "we aren't cheaters, we aren't tankers, we will get McDavid, everyone else does it (even if they don't) so don't hate us because we got it right" fans I hope your 4th overall pick is a dud.

I hope you enjoy the trip down the QEW to the Hockey Universe of the world where every kid dreams of playing and every UFA wants to play to come to the ACC and join us in Leafs Nation amongst the Sea of Blue to watch McDavid wearing his Leafs Jersey (the one he grew up dreaming of wearing) get a hatty to beat your Sabres with your 4th string AHL goalie in net while you "tank the best" again for the next few years and Toronto plans the parade.

If you wanna hate me I might was well give you everything you need to do so and then some.

Enjoy!
- Cush29

So, we only make TANK trades and not trades that our good for the team? Okay, well lets look at our trades since the announcing our rebuild.

Gaustad for 1st rd. pick
Pominville for a 1st rd, 2nd rd., Hackett, Larsson
Regerh for two 2nd rd.
Sekera for Jt Compher
Vanek for 1st, 2nd, Moulson
Miller and Ott for a 1st, conditional 3rd, Stewart (2nd), Halak (Neuvirth,3rd), and Carrier.
two 2nds and McNabb for Fashing and Deslauries
Moulson for two 2nds and Mitchell
Myers, 1st, Armia(bust), Lemieux?, Stafford(joke) for Kane, Bogo, Kasdorf

The list goes on and on. Anybody with any hockey sense would see these trades as getting more than max value for what we gave up, but these are, "Tank trades"? Give me a break. We have by far the deepest prospect pool in the league because of these trades and will be climbing up the standings soon.

This whole tank thing is a disgrace. As a buffalonian who spent 33 years of my life there. It is plain sad that the majority of the "community" which they constantly harp on there is rooting for a draft pick which has an 80 % chance of not happening.
I mean those are the odds folks if you finish last : 20 % of winning the lottery.

Whoever wins the lottery gets Mcdavid . But nobody really is tanking for Eichel are they?

Never mind back to me beloved Blackhawks, we've got problems at #6 defenseman.
- Omahawk

Typical of MOST Hawks fans...hop off the bandwagon buddy it's crowded enough.

Or were they UFAs to be and they let them walk for nothing? GMs can't win no matter what the circumstances are.
- druryisclutch

Just let the Laff's fan rant. He'll be defending his team with the exact same justifications the next two years when everyone is all up in the Leafs blog. It's just too bad that it has taken 48ish years for his team to figure out that not every kid wants to play for his beloved Maple Leafs. Do we as Sabres fans really care what it takes to not be mediocre for another 10 years? No. And by the way. There is no reason for us to drive on the QEW. I stopped playing travel hockey over 15 years ago.

And on a little side note I want to personally thank the Maple Leafs. We owe this season to you. Without a prime example of how NOT to rebuild we might have driven our TANK down the wrong path!

Do you care to walk back your statement?

05-06 season, St. Louis Blues finish dead last in the league with 57 pts, win the lottery and pick Eric Johnson with the 1st overall pick.

07-08 finished fourth from the bottom in the league, pick 4th Alex Pietrangelo.



- sskkoo1

This is what you guys making these type of arguments don't understand. There is a difference between having a crappy hockey team and deliberately sabotaging your roster to get the best pick.

This is what you guys making these type of arguments don't understand. There is a difference between having a crappy hockey team and deliberately sabotaging your roster to get the best pick.
- uf1910

And the difference being what exactly? I assume your answer will be something along the lines of the NJ Devils in that 15th -20th range every season.

Tanking is terrible period. You have to have a rebuild sometimes for sure but you should be actively manipulating the roster to lose games. That is nonsense.

The worst part of it all is the fans who subsidize a billionaire's attempt to rebuild, rebrand his franchise on their dime by appealing to their emptional connction to a team.

Proud to say the Blues never tanked. One of the greedy walmart kids figured they could no get an NBA team deicded to sell the team and traded away great players and let one walk for nothing in return. In fact the Pronger trade was absolutely terrible in the return.

What is happening in Buffalo is a disgrace. The NHL ought to decrease the lottery chnaces for losers more dramatically to keep such crap from occurring.

If you look at some of the trades invovling goaltenders and their retrn it is an absolute farce.
- BluemanGuruu

I have to agree on my feelings on tanking. However, and this is where I give them a little leeway on being too critical. This rebuild/tank job began last year with the Vanek/Miller etc deals. This year was just a continuation of that and to their credit they did make a few acquisitions over the summer. My personal opinion is if a team sucks they should play as many young prospect types as much as possible as then you can justify your suckage by giving the kids valuable experience.

And the difference being what exactly? I assume your answer will be something along the lines of the NJ Devils in that 15th -20th range every season.
- SayBeers

The difference between having a poopty hockey team that gets the 1st pick and tanking your team to get the first pick. You guys can't counter other teams criticism of the tank by saying well "look at year ____ when you finished last and drafted ____ 1st overall". Teams have sucked at one time or another throughout history, doesn't mean each and every one of them deliberately sabotaged their roster in the name of suckage

Go read my post above regarding my feelings on what you guys are doing. Do I particularly like it, no. But is it the best for your franchise rebuild, absolutely. Again, I just don't like Sabre fans trying to argue that they aren't tanking b/c that is just foolish

Just let the Laff's fan rant. He'll be defending his team with the exact same justifications the next two years when everyone is all up in the Leafs blog. It's just too bad that it has taken 48ish years for his team to figure out that not every kid wants to play for his beloved Maple Leafs. Do we as Sabres fans really care what it takes to not be mediocre for another 10 years? No. And by the way. There is no reason for us to drive on the QEW. I stopped playing travel hockey over 15 years ago.
- SayBeers

Nope I won't be but you keep on stereotyping.....good stuff!


Owww the 48 years crack really hurts my feelings and is so refreshingly witty and new I don't think I've ever heard it before!

If Toronto was doing what Buffalo is doing now and alot of other teams have done in the past I'd be saying the same thing and feel it was just as wrong as it is now.

Of course you don't have to believe me, you don't even know me but I do find it mildly amusing to see you have decided and stated with such authority what I will be saying 2 years from now - you should probably go buy a lottery ticket!

Now hang on in all fairness, I didn't call you a hypocrite just instructed you get off your high horse.


A statement I stand by. I get it, you feel he let two good goalies go for NOTHING. I feel he could have gotten more, but he didn't. He got third and fourth round picks for them in future drafts. Still more than he gets if they walk out the door for nothing. Sure it wasn't much, but I was also in the camp (wasn't posting at this time) of the MASSIVE OVERPAYMENT for Myers man I was wrong. But if we realistically look at what Myers fetched, a hot commodity, should we be surprised with what Enroth and Neuvirth got? I'm with you that those moves were perplexing, but if he got all he could I'm OK with it.

However,
You still didn't answer my question.

You're team is in 30th place, you know they aren't going anywhere. You can lose all your FA's or get something for them what do you do? Do you really think Murray had better offers for both those players but let them go for nothing? They were FA's, he stated at the beginning of the year, he's not letting FA's go for nothing. Why sign a guy if he can get you something, ANYTHING, by trading him if you're not a good team? The Sabres need WAY more than a goalie to win. I just don't see how you can do anything different.

And apparently, neither do you. That's why you didn't answer.
- gcomella34

Sorry for not answering your question - here you go:

I certainly support getting value for your FA's IF YOU CAN"T RESIGN THEM. I dont' think your GM made much of an attempt to re-sign all his FA's. Why sign a guy if he can get you something? Here is the answer - if the "guy" is worth more than you "get" and makes your team better that's why as opposed to what your GM did - trade these FA's for less than what he could get for them simply to ensure he shed his team of talent, make it look like a trade when in fact it was a well thought out and executed plan to contribute to the Sabres continuing to drop in the standings. The Sabres seemed to be ok riding a hot goalie in the past, what happened to that? Oh wait I know they decided they wanted to bottom out. It's that simple, the moves that were made were all for the purpose of bottoming out and feelings aside the GM did execute this plan very well. Yes plan....it was well thought out, in advance and then executed.

Why sign a guy if your not a good team....what about to make you a better team? But that flys in the fact of the current strategy of the Sabres - be as bad as you can be until you get what you want and THEN and only then do you start signing guys, re-signing guys etc. to get better. I get it, I don't agree with it but don't tell me the poor old Sabres didn't have any other options.....

Stop with the "Laffs" stuff...it's as childish as all the "Barfalo" stuff and there's been enough whining over the years about being talked down to with that "term".

And if people can't keep to talking about what the team is doing and continue talking about other posters, then you'll be free to have a weekend away from your keyboard here.

Sorry for not answering your question - here you go:

I certainly support getting value for your FA's IF YOU CAN"T RESIGN THEM. I dont' think your GM made much of an attempt to re-sign all his FA's.
- Cush29

So you hate that they're tanking based on your speculation?

So, we only make TANK trades and not trades that our good for the team? Okay, well lets look at our trades since the announcing our rebuild.

Gaustad for 1st rd. pick
Pominville for a 1st rd, 2nd rd., Hackett, Larsson
Regerh for two 2nd rd.
Sekera for Jt Compher
Vanek for 1st, 2nd, Moulson
Miller and Ott for a 1st, conditional 3rd, Stewart (2nd), Halak (Neuvirth,3rd), and Carrier.
two 2nds and McNabb for Fashing and Deslauries
Moulson for two 2nds and Mitchell
Myers, 1st, Armia(bust), Lemieux?, Stafford(joke) for Kane, Bogo, Kasdorf

The list goes on and on. Anybody with any hockey sense would see these trades as getting more than max value for what we gave up, but these are, "Tank trades"? Give me a break. We have by far the deepest prospect pool in the league because of these trades and will be climbing up the standings soon.

- sskkoo1

More than max value for what you gave up? Really? If this is your opinion asn someone with an acute hockey sense I don't think we need to bother continuing to debate this. Your GM took less than face value but besides that the real point is he made no attempt to re-sign FA's....it was a fire sale, everything that could go should go.

Be proud of your "deepest prospect pool" in the league - I think some people may disagree with your assessment but time will telll I guess. Glad to hear you will be hoisting Lord Stanley for the very first time next year! (Sorry I couldn't find the emoticon for sarcasm). - Maybe it's this one?

Nope I won't be but you keep on stereotyping.....good stuff!


Owww the 48 years crack really hurts my feelings and is so refreshingly witty and new I don't think I've ever heard it before!

If Toronto was doing what Buffalo is doing now and alot of other teams have done in the past I'd be saying the same thing and feel it was just as wrong as it is now.

Of course you don't have to believe me, you don't even know me but I do find it mildly amusing to see you have decided and stated with such authority what I will be saying 2 years from now - you should probably go buy a lottery ticket!


- Cush29

Hoping to cash in the lottery ticket this year! I'll be sure to return the trolling once the Leafs fire sale kicks in full gear.

And on a little side note I want to personally thank the Maple Leafs. We owe this season to you. Without a prime example of how NOT to rebuild we might have driven our TANK down the wrong path!
- SayBeers

Oh don't give the Leafs any credit for your shrewd GM and his "tank at all costs" ways.....maybe he learned it more from watching teams of the past who have had recent success (a la Pitts, Chi town etc.) than watching the Leafs continually sell their fan base a glimmer of hope only to crash down to a middle of the pack finish and a middle of the pack draft pick who is doomed to never live up to expectations.....

And the difference being what exactly? I assume your answer will be something along the lines of the NJ Devils in that 15th -20th range every season.
- SayBeers

The difference is Integrity.

The difference between having a poopty hockey team that gets the 1st pick and tanking your team to get the first pick. You guys can't counter other teams criticism of the tank by saying well "look at year ____ when you finished last and drafted ____ 1st overall". Teams have sucked at one time or another throughout history, doesn't mean each and every one of them deliberately sabotaged their roster in the name of suckage

Go read my post above regarding my feelings on what you guys are doing. Do I particularly like it, no. But is it the best for your franchise rebuild, absolutely. Again, I just don't like Sabre fans trying to argue that they aren't tanking b/c that is just foolish
- uf1910

I'm going to say I agree with all that you've said above. But I'm a Leafs fan so somehow I'm sure it will be about my team sucks, 1967, nothing in 48 years, we hate your fan base, you guys will be yapping about how great you are next year and some other garbage along those lines.

Maybe because it came from a non-Leafs fan (assuming you are) it'll get more traction? Regardless it's a well thought out and articulated post.

Stop with the "Laffs" stuff...it's as childish as all the "Barfalo" stuff and there's been enough wining over the years about being talked down to with that "term".

And if people can't keep to talking about what the team is doing and continue talking about other posters, then you'll be free to have a weekend away from your keyboard here.
- stashu

M'eh....That doesn't really bother me, I'm a Leafs fan, I'm used to far worse to be honest. But I hear you.

So you hate that they're tanking based on your speculation?
- stashu

Do you think he made an 'honest' attempt? Your correct (technically) it's purely my speculation but I think the vast majority of people would also agree there probably was less of an attempt to re-sign than there was to trade.

Do YOU think they got face value or better for their FA's? Serious question - not trolling....

Hoping to cash in the lottery ticket this year! I'll be sure to return the trolling once the Leafs fire sale kicks in full gear.

- SayBeers

Join the majority....troll in the Leafs blog!

Don't worry eventually you'll get used to getting trolled.....it'll hurt less when you get used to it, honest.

You missed where I said BUY a lottery ticket, we all know that if anyone was going to BUY the draft lottery it would be MLSE - they have so much money it's just stupid and it's the biggest part of the problem in Toronto.

Do you think he made an 'honest' attempt? Your correct (technically) it's purely my speculation but I think the vast majority of people would also agree there probably was less of an attempt to re-sign than there was to trade.

Do YOU think they got face value or better for their FA's? Serious question - not trolling....
- Cush29

No, they definitely did not get face value or better. The most glaring example was the Torrey Mitchell trade. Is he a bona-fide top 6 guy? No. But you cannot tell me it's better to have an AHL goon and a 7th round pick than his mediocre, but NHL-level play for 6 weeks.

Do you think he made an 'honest' attempt? Your correct (technically) it's purely my speculation but I think the vast majority of people would also agree there probably was less of an attempt to re-sign than there was to trade.

Do YOU think they got face value or better for their FA's? Serious question - not trolling....
- Cush29

The only player we did not get face value for was Mitchell, who if I had to guess would not have resigned here in the offseason.

Do you think he made an 'honest' attempt? Your correct (technically) it's purely my speculation but I think the vast majority of people would also agree there probably was less of an attempt to re-sign than there was to trade.

Do YOU think they got face value or better for their FA's? Serious question - not trolling....
- Cush29

I can't say I followed the deadline other than Buffalo's moves to know what was "fair" for 2 goalies that have been talked about as career backups - the same two who now get the GM blasted for not getting huge returns.

Enroth is a career .908 Save % goalie, Neuvirth is a .912 Save % guy. Are those types of goaltenders - who have played a combined 290 games in the NHL over 13 combined seasons (maximum of 910-ish games if they each averaged 70 per year).

I just think the change in peoples' opinions over what those 2 guys could fetch suddenly is laughable.

Plus Enroth is on a better team yet playing horribly (.873 in 7 games, Neuvirth is .860 in 2 games)