They are all gone now, and Giroux was thrust into the role, and he's not suited for it.
- sdrowkcab

Cool, didn't know you traveled with the team or are in the locker room because if you are not exactly how do you know if a player is suited for being a captain or not?

Couturier, Read and Schenn having down years.. Yup , on Giroux.
Homer stacking our defense with first pairing dmen, Giroux's leadership.
Mason getting hurt, also on his not being suited to be captain.

Bergeron
18:00/game, 1:45 PK, 2:20 PP. 55 POints, 14 on PP
Cout
18:23/game, 2:20 PK, 1:34 PP, 37 points, 6 PP

bergeron, for most of the season plays with Marchand and Kreji/Smith

I would argue that Cout isn't actually that far off. Given the same PP time and linemates that can score, his totals would, I think, be comparable.
- nails

That's actually really interesting to see the two comparisons side by side. Coots really isn't all that far off.

Would you trade the tampa pick and chicago's 2nd to move up to get Svechnikov or a falling Kylington?
- JAKEw1234

Absolutely.

Kyllington maybe be there when the Lightning pick is up. He's actually who I'd be leaning towards if he's there (over Debrusk, Meloche, etc).

Coots probably gets more dzone starts and might marginally play against tougher competition
- JAKEw1234

I don't even need advanced stats of any kind to guess at that. just the TOI in each situation tells me enough.

I've been waiting

I'm leaning towards Rantanen, Zacha and Werenski as 8-10. Zacha does worry me though. I think he might be the highest risk/reward guy in the group. It's impressive that he's doing fairly well given it's his first year in NA though. But still would like a little more production.

I wonder why Kyle Connor gets no love here?

Also, I really like Svechnikov with lightning pick. I'd look into whatever to trade up and get him.
- TheGreat28

Connor is a guy I'd consider trading up(from TB's pick) or down(from the Flyers pick) but I don't take him at 7 and i think he's gone by 24 or 27 or whatever

So much of this goes back to the loss of Pronger. He was slated to wear the C (which he did for about 20 games), and to fill that gap, the Flyers went with Giroux over Briere, Hartnell, or Timonen. The Flyers got by early (before Pronger's concussion) because Jagr stepped in and filled the role with the previously mentioned Briere, Hartnell, and Timonen backing him up.

They are all gone now, and Giroux was thrust into the role, and he's not suited for it. I think Lecavalier was brought in for leadership, but the mismanagement in the front office has rendered him a non-factor. I see Simmonds as more of a leader, and Voracek has made strides.

Leadership aside, the 5 on 5 was simply abysmal. If the Flyers can't handle a team at even strength, then they can't hope to succeed in the playoffs.

Hopefully they will get rid of Berube and trade off Lecavalier and the Schenn brothers for that much-desired leadership and some useful picks.
- sdrowkcab

Giroux, to me, is a fine leader, but he's not a Pronger or even a Timonen. Those are the types of guys who can command a room simply with a look, and Giroux doesn't have that. Still, he is a leader by example and, unlike Richards, he wanted to be the captain. I think Richards accepted the captaincy (after turning it down once), but never wanted it the way Giroux does.

Ummm Rantanen
- ob18

I'd be fine with him over Zacha on my list. Admittedly I've fallen for the top 7, I'm going to be very upset if we don't land one them from that group.

Their is 100% nothing wrong at all with saying he is a really solid shut down 3 line center that can contribute 30-35 points. Every team would be lucky to have a player like that just like I think we are. Im not sure where this belief started that he was going to be a consistent 50-60 point player got started.

To this point in their careers since they are essentially the same when it comes to age and games played neither Couturier or Schenn have been able to deliver as a second line center.
- opeth_pa

Couts had 41 points last year despite seeing a huge defensive burden and no PP time at 21 years old. I'm not sure how you can look at that and wonder why people would think he could score 50+ points

No, I sit tight and use them.
- ob18

Kylington could be a huge steal. If he's still there at 15 I'd go for it.

EDIT: I didnt see that he'd dropped so much. He's my first choice for the tampa pick

Connor is a guy I'd consider trading up(from TB's pick) or down(from the Flyers pick) but I don't take him at 7 and i think he's gone by 24 or 27 or whatever
- Jsaquella

Agreed. But if I'm trading up with the Lightning pick I'm going Svechnikov.

So much of this goes back to the loss of Pronger. He was slated to wear the C (which he did for about 20 games), and to fill that gap, the Flyers went with Giroux over Briere, Hartnell, or Timonen. The Flyers got by early (before Pronger's concussion) because Jagr stepped in and filled the role with the previously mentioned Briere, Hartnell, and Timonen backing him up.

They are all gone now, and Giroux was thrust into the role, and he's not suited for it. I think Lecavalier was brought in for leadership, but the mismanagement in the front office has rendered him a non-factor. I see Simmonds as more of a leader, and Voracek has made strides.

Leadership aside, the 5 on 5 was simply abysmal. If the Flyers can't handle a team at even strength, then they can't hope to succeed in the playoffs.

Hopefully they will get rid of Berube and trade off Lecavalier and the Schenn brothers for that much-desired leadership and some useful picks.
- sdrowkcab

I agree with a lot of this, but disagree that Giroux's not suited for the Captaincy. There was no problem with him wearing the C when he basically carried the team on his back to the playoffs last season, and if Simmonds and Voracek are such great leaders on their own merits, why wasn't it evident this season?

Adding respected veteran leadership would definitely be a help, but I have no issue with Giroux as the captain. I don't think that is an issue at all.

Many are taking Berube's comments out of context in my opinion. Berube hasn't stated that he expects Couturier to score at the same level that Bergeron does, or has.
- MJL

But doesn't Cout already carry a greater D responsibility than Bergeron does? So what's left except scoring at a similar level.
And based off of what Berube is quoted at, I definitely came away with it as couts needs to produce more like Bergeron.

Couts had 41 points last year despite seeing a huge defensive burden and no PP time at 21 years old. I'm not sure how you can look at that and wonder why people would think he couldn't score 50+ points
- PhillySportsGuy

This is why it annoys me to no end when I hear people disparage Couturier.

That's actually really interesting to see the two comparisons side by side. Coots really isn't all that far off.
- benjichronic

It would be interesting to see what Couts would do in Bergeron's position/line in Boston.

Agreed. But if I'm trading up with the Lightning pick I'm going Svechnikov.
- TheGreat28

I'd have zero problem with that. I have more potential names for that pick than the 1st one

Kylington could be a huge steal. If he's still there at 15 I'd go for it.

EDIT: I didnt see that he'd dropped so much. He's my first choice for the tampa pick
- JAKEw1234

I'd consider moving up, would be foolish to not.

Their is 100% nothing wrong at all with saying he is a really solid shut down 3 line center that can contribute 30-35 points. Every team would be lucky to have a player like that just like I think we are. Im not sure where this belief started that he was going to be a consistent 50-60 point player got started.

To this point in their careers since they are essentially the same when it comes to age and games played neither Couturier or Schenn have been able to deliver as a second line center.
- opeth_pa

Agreed! If he scores 10-15 goals a year and prevents another 10-15, technically that is as good as him scoring 20-30. I'd love to see more than 10-15 but his strength as a guy who can shut down superstars on other teams is a really valuable tool to have on this team. He's basically made Crosby and Malkin a non-factor the past few years.

I agree with a lot of this, but disagree that Giroux's not suited for the Captaincy. There was no problem with him wearing the C when he basically carried the team on his back to the playoffs last season, and if Simmonds and Voracek are such great leaders on their own merits, why wasn't it evident this season?

Adding respected veteran leadership would definitely be a help, but I have no issue with Giroux as the captain. I don't think that is an issue at all.
- Jsaquella

I see a new coach turning to VLC to be part of this solution. It is obvious Berube never had that in mind for him.

Couts had 41 points last year despite seeing a huge defensive burden and no PP time at 21 years old. I'm not sure how you can look at that and wonder why people would think he could score 50+ points
- PhillySportsGuy

Which of the things I said in my post were wrong?

That he was going to be a consistent 50 - 60 point person, he has to do that at least 2 times before saying he is consistent at it.

Or was it when i said to this point in their careers neither he or Schenn have produced consistently enough to be your starting 2 line center?

I see a new coach turning to VLC to be part of this solution. It is obvious Berube never had that in mind for him.
- MBFlyerfan

I'd be OK with that, but they need to find a role for him to fit. If Lecavalier is back and expected to be in the leadership group, the Flyers need a coach who is going to find a way to get effective play from Vinny.

The question is, is that even possible? I don't know that it is.

But doesn't Cout already carry a greater D responsibility than Bergeron does? So what's left except scoring at a similar level.
And based off of what Berube is quoted at, I definitely came away with it as couts needs to produce more like Bergeron.
- nails

Couturier carries a large defensive burden. I think that stating that's what Berube thinks, is off base. Couturier couldn't score at Bergeron's level if had a majority of OZ starts. He's not as fast or as skilled as Bergeron is. All Berube is saying is that Couturier can score, and has room for improvement offensively. Nothing more.

This is why it annoys me to no end when I hear people disparage Couturier.
- MBFlyerfan

Omg how dare anyone question any part of Couturier!!!

Their is no other way to say it..Couturier, Read and Schenn all had down years when the games mattered. That isn't disparaging him, saying he is a really good or great 3 line shut down center isn't disparaging him. Saying this year he had multiple chances to point up points and didn't isn't disparaging him.

That is all stating fact.

Omg how dare anyone question any part of Couturier!!!

Their is no other way to say it..Couturier, Read and Schenn all had down years when the games mattered. That isn't disparaging him, saying he is a really good or great 3 line shut down center isn't disparaging him. Saying this year he had multiple chances to point up points and didn't isn't disparaging him.

That is all stating fact.
- opeth_pa

No, but when many are calling for him to be traded and calling him a bust who has "no hands", that he will be nothing better than a 3rd line center. I take umbrage with that.

This is why it annoys me to no end when I hear people disparage Couturier.
- MBFlyerfan

IDK if people are really tearing him apart but I am one of the people who think Couturier does not have much offensive flare or skill if you will. He is defintely capable of posting 50 pts.....its seems for the most part to me that its not very noticeable. He almost never burys a glorious chance. Some of his goals seem rather lucky and he at times can dish a nice pass. He's a solid two-way player with potential for sure.....but at this current time. He is not a very good offensive player, even if you gave him more offensive zone starts. He has a problem creating offense when he is given the chance. I know that there are several variables to consider. Personally, I wish the kid the best as it would benefit the Flyers and I would like to see him play with different wingers. He looks good with Schenn....and please no more Matt Read on his line. Couts w/ Schenn or Simmonds and a speedy/skilled winger would sound nice. I need to see that before I start the #tradecouts talk.

Which of the things I said in my post were wrong?

That he was going to be a consistent 50 - 60 point person, he has to do that at least 2 times before saying he is consistent at it.

Or was it when i said to this point in their careers neither he or Schenn have produced consistently enough to be your starting 2 line center?
- opeth_pa

When you said: Im not sure where this belief started that he was going to be a consistent 50-60 point player got started.

Then I supplied evidence as to why people would believe he had the potential to score 50+ points

You also said there was nothing wrong with being a 30-35 point player when Couturier has score more than 35 points the last two years.

You can be a Berube and ignore stuff like linemates and usage when considering a player's offensive output, but I feel the need to live in reality and understand that he was never given an opportunity to produce.

Scoring around the league was way down. The average second line center scored around 40-45 points this year. Couts was only a few points away from that number. Giroux only had 70 points this year I believe and he was one of the top centers in hockey