First thing I'm doing is tossing all those HERO charts and Corsi/Fenwick crap aside. Given WAAAAAAY too much weight in decision making.

Instead of focusing on HERO charts, look at the other intangibles that matter....PK ability, faceoffs, defensive play on ice. Sutter's even strength GA/60 of 1.53 was 10th in the league for players with over 750 5vs5 minutes (262 total forwards). Soderberg checked in at 23rd with a 1.73, Fehr 63rd at 1.95. Santorelli was in the 200s. Letestu and Cullen were 63rd and 45th if they had enough minutes (both came in under 750).

You also can't forget about faceoffs. Sutter takes over 1000 faceoffs a season, 2nd only to Crosby. He's also a RH faceoff guy, which Crosby and Malkin are not. Sutter traditionally is not great at faceoffs, under 50%, but was 50.6% for the year. Fehr is also RH, took about 500 less draws than Sutter, and was 52%. Soderberg is LH, took 600 less draws than Sutter, and was 48.2%. Santorelli, Cullen, and Letestu had even less draws then Soderberg.

Santorelli, Cullen, and Soderberg didn't have much in the way of PK time this season, not enough to register meaningful stats. Sutter's GA/60 at 4vs5 play was 5.68....better than Fehr's 5.90 and Letestu's 6.03. All of those numbers are mediocre, as the top 40 players with 100 minutes of SH ice time are all under 5.31. The big item here is, you can't just say someone else will pickup Sutter's PK time. Excluding Goc and Winnik, Sutter was 2nd behind only Adams in PK time for forwards. If you shift his minutes to a winger, you then have problems having to shift guys on and off to take faceoffs and win the draws.

This isn't to say I'm a 100% fan of Sutter. He has his warts...I particularly am not impressed with his ability to setup linemates for chances. Of his 12 assists, many of them are 2nd assists or simple passes to the point.

Out of all the players mentioned, Fehr would probably be the best option, as he's RH, good face off numbers on less draws overall, identical points, plays a fair amount on the PK.

The other player I looked at, recent off-ice issues aside, was Jarret Stoll. His GA/60 is good, he's RH, takes over 1000 faceoffs and wins 51%, is a more physical player than any of those mentioned above, plays a good bit on the PK, but has half the points of Sutter/Fehr. His recent drug arrest would also be a red flag, and Ryan would hate him because his HERO chart isn't good.....which is probably because like Sutter, he's expected to be more defensive forward, concentrating more on shutting down other lines than generating shots.
- djr5899

First thing I'm doing is tossing all those HERO charts and Corsi/Fenwick crap aside. Given WAAAAAAY too much weight in decision making.

And then use nearly the same data, but keeping what supports Sutter.

http://www.csnphilly.com/...tter?p=ya5nbcs&ocid=yahoo

I'm curious if pens fans think a last first would be a fair trade for sutter? I'm not sure what we could get for him but I do believe we should move him. Perhaps a team like Buffalo (trading Islanders/St. Louis 1st) would be a fair trade? I would consider it.
- tbassett

100%

Does anyone else care that the Penguins seem to be sticking with Johnston?
- Johnny Wrath

Hard to judge him fully when everyone was hurt, banged up, and then overplayed going into the playoffs. He looked good for the first 15-20 games when our lineup wasn't a cluster(frank).

http://www.csnphilly.com/blog/700-level/pittsburgh-penguins-get-wonderfully-trolled-discovery-channel-twitter?p=ya5nbcs&ocid=yahoo

- wingz4life

I saw the exchange on twitter. I was cracking up.

Where is Shawn Mathias on this list? I'd like to see his numbers. He's a much tougher player than sutter but still seems to score his goals., well he had 18 this year in Van city anyways. He's a free agent. I would love to swipe he and Zach Kassian from the Canucks, at least that will make this team tougher.

Canucks offer Chris Tanev(or Nick Bonino) and Chris Higgins for him. Deal?
- Nucker101

100%

http://www.csnphilly.com/blog/700-level/pittsburgh-penguins-get-wonderfully-trolled-discovery-channel-twitter?p=ya5nbcs&ocid=yahoo

- wingz4life

This was very well done.

Does anyone else care that the Penguins seem to be sticking with Johnston?
- Johnny Wrath

It'd be worrying to coaching candidates, imo, to walk into a situation where you're the third coach in three years.

I am just thinking aloud here, but if Sutter is dealt and the Penguins move on with a more defensive "shutdown" type of center will there be a majority of fans complaining next year that their third line is giving no production? In the cap world that we live in with the large contracts out there for 87 71 29 58, what is the realistic expectations for a 3rd line center that you guys would be happy with?

Does anyone else care that the Penguins seem to be sticking with Johnston?
- Johnny Wrath

Gives a team a bad name when they jump from coach to coach, puts job security into question and doesn't make the team a desirable place when in the market for a new coach

I am just thinking aloud here, but if Sutter is dealt and the Penguins move on with a more defensive "shutdown" type of center will there be a majority of fans complaining next year that their third line is giving no production? In the cap world that we live in with the large contracts out there for 87 71 29 58, what is the realistic expectations for a 3rd line center that you guys would be happy with?
- did109

21 goals and physical shutdown guy with great leadership ability for less then $3 mil

I am just thinking aloud here, but if Sutter is dealt and the Penguins move on with a more defensive "shutdown" type of center will there be a majority of fans complaining next year that their third line is giving no production? In the cap world that we live in with the large contracts out there for 87 71 29 58, what is the realistic expectations for a 3rd line center that you guys would be happy with?
- did109

To have a 3rd line center that literally doesn't loose every puck battle he's involved in......especially along the boards.

21 goals and physical shutdown guy with great leadership ability for less then $3 mil
- dbell646

LOL! And I would like to have a Crosby clone.

I am just thinking aloud here, but if Sutter is dealt and the Penguins move on with a more defensive "shutdown" type of center will there be a majority of fans complaining next year that their third line is giving no production? In the cap world that we live in with the large contracts out there for 87 71 29 58, what is the realistic expectations for a 3rd line center that you guys would be happy with?
- did109

Sutter's not an impressive producer. He notches about 30 points a season. Soderberg, Santorelli, and Fehr all come in at about the same point production but are actually good hockey players. We don't need to give up point production or break the bank to improve from Sutter.

I am just thinking aloud here, but if Sutter is dealt and the Penguins move on with a more defensive "shutdown" type of center will there be a majority of fans complaining next year that their third line is giving no production? In the cap world that we live in with the large contracts out there for 87 71 29 58, what is the realistic expectations for a 3rd line center that you guys would be happy with?
- did109

In 209 regular season games with PIT Sutter has 78 pts. In 33 postseason games he has 12 pts. And he gets a lot of minutes so his lack of production isn't from limited playing time (very low ES pts/60). Pretty sure Pens can find another player to replace his production for less cost.

Sutter's not an impressive producer. He notches about 30 points a season. Soderberg, Santorelli, and Fehr all come in at about the same point production but are actually good hockey players. We don't need to give up point production or break the bank to improve from Sutter.
- Victoro311

This is an excellent blog on Sutter. Soderberg is the guy I hope they get, unless he wants a 5 year term.

http://www.csnphilly.com/blog/700-level/pittsburgh-penguins-get-wonderfully-trolled-discovery-channel-twitter?p=ya5nbcs&ocid=yahoo

- wingz4life

That's fantastic!...and sad.

http://www.csnphilly.com/blog/700-level/pittsburgh-penguins-get-wonderfully-trolled-discovery-channel-twitter?p=ya5nbcs&ocid=yahoo

- wingz4life

I love it when the Pens PR department takes L's like this

Gives a team a bad name when they jump from coach to coach, puts job security into question and doesn't make the team a desirable place when in the market for a new coach
- SRam19

Yet the Canucks hired Dejardins, the man Rutherford said during a press conference was his first choice. Dejardins who is the third coach in Vancouver in as many years.

Yet the Canucks hired Dejardins, the man Rutherford said during a press conference was his first choice. Dejardins who is the third coach in Vancouver in as many years.
- Johnny Wrath

Seems like Rutherford is the person to blame for all your issues if you're saying that, and the evidence is clear with your fountain of depth your team has.

This is an excellent blog on Sutter. Soderberg is the guy I hope they get, unless he wants a 5 year term.
- madmike71

The thin market is gonna drive Soderberg's term and price way up. Look at the contract Orpik got. FA time is insane. I gotta believe he gets anywhere from 4/16 to 5/25....ie David Clarkson, Vinny Lecavalier etc.

The thin market is gonna drive Soderberg's term and price way up. Look at the contract Orpik got. FA time is insane. I gotta believe he gets anywhere from 4/16 to 5/25....ie David Clarkson, Vinny Lecavalier etc.
- did109

Maybe they are going to learn from the contracts of Oprik and Engelland and everyone won't overpay for once?


nah

Maybe they are going to learn from the contracts of Oprik and Engelland and everyone won't overpay for once?


nah
- Guile

Problem is you will have teams needing to spend just to get to the floor. And no one ever learns....those contracts signed on July 1 are outrageous and becoming even more so every year. I like Soderberg as a player but I guarantee he will not live up to whatever contract he signs.

Problem is you will have teams needing to spend just to get to the floor. And no one ever learns....those contracts signed on July 1 are outrageous and becoming even more so every year. I like Soderberg as a player but I guarantee he will not live up to whatever contract he signs.
- did109

I am quite certain I made the sarcasm very apparently in my post bud...