19 points in 55 games. That is a decline. He isn't the player he was in Washington. Sad thing is, people can't see that. Bad investment for whoever wants to take a gamble on him.
- Oneonta Penguin

That is one bad year. He may not be the point machine he was in Washington, but the 8 previous years he had at least a 20 goal pace, 25 goal pace in 7 of them. He also never produced below a 55 point pace in those 8 years. 25 and 55 are very reasonable projections anywhere, 30 and 60 very possible with Malkin as his center.

Then maybe Pouliot gets 18 on the 3rd pairing as well so there won't be a problem. The point is they may need to protect him as they did Letang. Hopefully not, but he was pretty sloppy towards the end of last year.
- Tojo.

Let's take your idea to a plausible outcome:

If you put Pouliot on 3rd pairing you'll need a stabilizing presence (like Eaton was for Letang) or his development will suffer. This brings me back to a guy like Jackman/Oduya/Hejda/etc. OK, say we get Hejda (for argument sake).

If you trade Sutter for Ellis, he plays #3 and will need a stabilizing partner given his very offense-minded game. Demoulin is definitely not ready for that role. So, we're back to the same problem of a stabilizing presence at #4.

EXCEPT now you've created at least the following problems:
(1) with Ellis chewing up #2 minutes (including PP time) how is Pouliot to develop? i.e., how do you balance their respective roles and playing time without pissing at least one of them off??
(2) With Sutter gone, what chips do you have to improve the top 6 or #3C for that matter?
(3) What will you do with Cole/Lovejoy/Scuederi? Scuderi buyout doesn't make cap-sense, so that's out the window and he's not quite good enough to balance Pouliot at #6 - or do you risk that?

I'm as concerned with sustainability as winning right now. I don't believe Malkin and Crosby are going to turn into pumpkins at age 30 like everyone else seems to. Boedker's underlying numbers are mediocre. His production is all based on usage- just like Vermette's. He has played in the league for 7 years and 368 games. The chances of him improving are remote at best. He won't be any better with improved line mates.
- jfkst1

This is why I think trading Sutter for Semin (@3.5/yr and getting a 2nd round pick back as well) is worth it.

That is one bad year. He may not be the point machine he was in Washington, but the 8 previous years he had at least a 20 goal pace, 25 goal pace in 7 of them. He also never produced below a 55 point pace in those 8 years. 25 and 55 are very reasonable projections anywhere, 30 and 60 very possible with Malkin as his center.
- Tojo.

The dude has issues all over the place and you continue to make excuses. The fact people remain interested in getting this bum is mind boggling. Its foolish.

Again, for you ... why did Washington go year to year with him and not extend him to a long term contract? I will wait for your answer.

This is why I think trading Sutter for Semin (@3.5/yr and getting a 2nd round pick back as well) is worth it.
- mventres

Remember, according to our esteemed all knowing Flyers fan, it should be Sutter and next years first for Semin and a 2nd...........

The dude has issues all over the place and you continue to make excuses. The fact people remain interested in getting this bum is mind boggling. Its foolish.

Again, for you ... why did Washington go year to year with him and not extend him to a long term contract? I will wait for your answer.
- Oneonta Penguin

Semin at $7mil/yr is not worth it. Semin at $3.5/yr is worth it.

Remember, according to our esteemed all knowing Flyers fan, it should be Sutter and next years first for Semin and a 2nd...........
- cap1681

lol, oh yeah....

This is why I think trading Sutter for Semin (@3.5/yr and getting a 2nd round pick back as well) is worth it.
- mventres

of course it is worth it, but why would the hurricanes do that?

How is a young, good skating, puck moving defenseman ever a horrible option?? I don't know how trading for Ellis came up, but he is a good player, and any team would take him in a heartbeat.
- cap1681

I just suggested a sutter for Ellis type deal before if sutter couldn't land a top 6 winger.

The dude has issues all over the place and you continue to make excuses. The fact people remain interested in getting this bum is mind boggling. Its foolish.

Again, for you ... why did Washington go year to year with him and not extend him to a long term contract? I will wait for your answer.
- Oneonta Penguin

I woudn't be willing to give up higher end assets to acquire him, but if its a late pick and a b level prospect, i consider it. He would be playing with similar talent that he played with in Washington.

of course it is worth it, but why would the hurricanes do that?
- nurk

They save $3.5 million overall, get cap space over the next 3 years, and get a potential #2C by giving up only a 2nd round pick.

of course it is worth it, but why would the hurricanes do that?
- nurk

They won't give up the 2nd (35th) just to retain half of Semin's deal and have Sutter for a year.

Let's take your idea to a plausible outcome:

If you put Pouliot on 3rd pairing you'll need a stabilizing presence (like Eaton was for Letang) or his development will suffer. This brings me back to a guy like Jackman/Oduya/Hejda/etc. OK, say we get Hejda (for argument sake).

If you trade Sutter for Ellis, he plays #3 and will need a stabilizing partner given his very offense-minded game. Demoulin is definitely not ready for that role. So, we're back to the same problem of a stabilizing presence at #4.

EXCEPT now you've created at least the following problems:
(1) with Ellis chewing up #2 minutes (including PP time) how is Pouliot to develop? i.e., how do you balance their respective roles and playing time without pissing at least one of them off??
(2) With Sutter gone, what chips do you have to improve the top 6 or #3C for that matter?
(3) What will you do with Cole/Lovejoy/Scuederi? Scuderi buyout doesn't make cap-sense, so that's out the window and he's not quite good enough to balance Pouliot at #6 - or do you risk that?
- mventres

1- Pouliot will play 2LD and Ellis plays 2RD. Works perfectly. They'd both be on the 2nd PP unit.
2- Not all that concerned. Sutter bringing back the most valuable asset is what I want. UFA and other possible trades to explore with Harrington/Dumoulin being expendable.
3- You're beyond all hope if you don't think a Scuderi buyout makes sense. Of course, we already knew that when you said Jackman>Ellis.

They save $3.5 million overall, get cap space over the next 3 years, and get a potential #2C by giving up only a 2nd round pick.
- mventres

only a second round pick? i thought they were trading semin too. im sorry, sutter for a 2nd round pick actually sounds like a decent offer.

They won't give up the 2nd (35th) just to retain half of Semin's deal and have Sutter for a year.
- BourbonCounty

Why not? The 2nd is more likely than not to be a bust anyway...seems worth the risk...

only a second round pick? i thought they were trading semin too. im sorry, sutter for a 2nd round pick actually sounds like a decent offer.
- nurk

Yes, they get Semin too

I just suggested a sutter for Ellis type deal before if sutter couldn't land a top 6 winger.
- drummer829

I wouldn't be against that. That cap hit is nice for the next 4 years, and he fits into the system.

Let's take your idea to a plausible outcome:

If you put Pouliot on 3rd pairing you'll need a stabilizing presence (like Eaton was for Letang) or his development will suffer. This brings me back to a guy like Jackman/Oduya/Hejda/etc. OK, say we get Hejda (for argument sake).

If you trade Sutter for Ellis, he plays #3 and will need a stabilizing partner given his very offense-minded game. Demoulin is definitely not ready for that role. So, we're back to the same problem of a stabilizing presence at #4.

EXCEPT now you've created at least the following problems:
(1) with Ellis chewing up #2 minutes (including PP time) how is Pouliot to develop? i.e., how do you balance their respective roles and playing time without pissing at least one of them off??
(2) With Sutter gone, what chips do you have to improve the top 6 or #3C for that matter?
(3) What will you do with Cole/Lovejoy/Scuederi? Scuderi buyout doesn't make cap-sense, so that's out the window and he's not quite good enough to balance Pouliot at #6 - or do you risk that?
- mventres

If you could flip sutter for Ellis you do it. Opens up a lot of scenarios including trading Ellis.

They won't give up the 2nd (35th) just to retain half of Semin's deal and have Sutter for a year.
- BourbonCounty

that was my point, they are getting a year for a 3rd line center, maybe a 2nd line center for one year and giving up the 2nd round pick and eating half of semins salary? that doesn't make a lot of sense to anyone.

If you could flip sutter for Ellis you do it. Opens up a lot of scenarios including trading Ellis.
- dbell646

No way. If you can get Ellis then you can get a top 6 winger.

Why not? The 2nd is more likely than not to be a bust anyway...seems worth the risk...
- mventres

so now you can tell that the 35th overall pick is going to be a bust? without the pick even being made? bob mckenzie just came out and said there are about 55 players with first round grades.

that was my point, they are getting a year for a 3rd line center, maybe a 2nd line center for one year and giving up the 2nd round pick and eating half of semins salary? that doesn't make a lot of sense to anyone.
- nurk

If they buy him out then it costs them (a) an extra $3.5mil overall, (b) cap hit of $2.33 over 6 years. If they suck it up and trade him then they save (a) and (b). No team will take Semin's contract. CAR will have to pay the team to take him. If they can get a #3C who could play #2C potentially, even unsigned, it's totally worth it as the 2nd rounder is likely a bust anyway...and who says Sutter doesn't resign anyway?

How was the Borts/Cole trade a bad one for the Blues?

There are a couple others that could also be discussed because of the scenarios at the time, but oh well. Let's just look at the Borts/Cole trade.

I am very happy so far with it on the Blues side, so explain how it was a bad deal for us.

so now you can tell that the 35th overall pick is going to be a bust? without the pick even being made? bob mckenzie just came out and said there are about 55 players with first round grades.
- nurk

Historically, less than 20% of 2nd round picks make it to the big time and have even a minor impact. Hence, 80% chance they are a bust. Not sure what part you don't get.

Even if you elaborate that to 50%, which is utterly absurd, the player doesn't even have an impact for at least 3-4 years anyway.

Historically, less than 20% of 2nd round picks make it to the big time and have even a minor impact. Hence, 80% chance they are a bust. Not sure what part you don't get.
- mventres

Is this Ray Shero? Is this the justification that went through your head when making deadline deals?