You understand this was just a rumor on this website right? This was not like a reported event that Dallas even offered the Hawks anything.
- mvp0207

I'm not sure an unaccepted trade offer is ever actually announced and discussed in a press release or a press conference.

I can only tell you the Dallas info. came from someone who is very close to the actual conversation—closer, for example, than the source who provided the particulars of a Toronto trade a few days earlier.

Does that guarantee its veracity? No. But I trust the source—same one who tipped me on the Hawks asking about Vermette, weeks before the actual trade and before anyone else had it.

More a case of GM's determined to buy at clearance sale pricing and the VP of Sales still insisting on MSRP.

Ever met an accountant who thought he was a skilled sales manager too? They rarely are.
- RickJ

THIS^^^^^^^^

I'll take whats behind door B. I don't think Scotty would get involved with hawks in the first place if he knew that Little Stanley was doing what he is told by McD. I think Stan is in charge of hockey op 100%, if there is 1 person that he listens to its his daddy nobody else.
His record (Cups) speaks for itself. Everybody is pointing out bad moves like Kimmo trade etc. If I remember correctly half of the people over here wanted to fold (including me) when Kaner went down. All I say at this point, 3 Cups later, it looks like Stan knows what he is doing. Just because some "source" (no offense to anybody) said that somebody is offering 1st, roster player, prospect for Sharpie doesn't mean it actually happened. Unless you on the phone with Stan or in the room you don't know. Maybe he wasn't offered even 2nd for Sharp who knows. All I know we are still the champs with Stan as our GM.
All GMs know hawks need to move out multiple players, they would be real stupid not to low ball Stan from the start. Just because Mickey on the street said there are 4-6-8 teams after Sharp it doesn't mean that they are not offering next to nothing for him.

Some people suggested that process with trading Sharp, Bickell can drag for long time ala Leddy, I was just wondering blackhawks convention is around the corner, they can not be on the roster by then, can they?
- TS-40

OK, there is a lot of validity to this, and a whole lot of stuff that's off.

You're right, none of us posting here, in all likelihood, knows "the deal" day to day in the Hawk front office. I go by what I have heard from multiple Hawk employees including in hockey ops. But even then, no, I am not the fly on the wall. Nor, therefore, do we know what the offers have been or haven't been—100% for sure.

As for "organizational" control/hand-tying and "Scotty wouldn't let Stanley take the job if that were the case." Well, McDonough pretty much said publicly that Tallon didn't operate the way he wanted—he wanted more of a "corporate" decision-making process. And no father is going to tell his son not to accept a promotion to the GM job of the imminent Stanley Cup Champs. Come on.

To assume that there were no conversations or offers made for Sharp is sort of almost beyond naive. And so ASSUMING THERE WERE, then the conversation about overplaying his hand at least becomes valid as far as asking the question.

As far as the assertion about 3 Cups giving him all this credibility and freedom.

First, he had next to nothing to do with the first Cup. OK? Really.

Second, Cups 1, 2 and 3 don't happen without some or all of the following players: Toews, Kane, Hossa, Keith, Seabrook, Sharp, Bolland, Crawford, Kruger—all acquired by one of the previous two GMs. Yes, you can give Bowman a pretty fair amount of credit on 2 and 3 for filling in, hitting on Saad and Shaw, etc.

I give him credit for stepping up and acquiring Vermette this year, but I will also tell you I heard, again through a HAWK source, that McDonough himself had to intervene and tell him to do whatever it takes. Bowman himself, I was told, was being "too conservative."

So that's also why I WON'T blame him, as many do, for Timonen, which on its own merits was an all-time whiff.

OK, there is a lot of validity to this, and a whole lot of stuff that's off.

You're right, none of us posting here, in all likelihood, knows "the deal" day to day in the Hawk front office. I go by what I have heard from multiple Hawk employees including in hockey ops. But even then, no, I am not the fly on the wall. Nor, therefore, do we know what the offers have been or haven't been—100% for sure.

To assume that there were no conversations or offers made for Sharp, however, is sort of almost beyond naive. And so ASSUMING THERE WERE, then the conversation about overplaying his hand at least becomes valid as far as asking the question.

As far as the assertion about 3 Cups giving him all this credibility and freedom.

First, he had next to nothing to do with the first Cup. OK? Really.

Second, Cups 1, 2 and 3 don't happen without some or all of the following players: Toews, Kane, Hossa, Keith, Seabrook, Sharp, Bolland, Crawford, Kruger—all acquired by one of the previous two GMs. Yes, you can give Bowman a pretty fair amount of credit on 2 and 3 for filling in, hitting on Saad and Shaw, etc.

I give him credit for stepping up and acquiring Vermette this year, but I will also tell you I heard, again through a HAWK source, that McDonough himself had to intervene and tell him to do whatever it takes. Bowman himself, I was told, was being "too conservative."

So that's also why I WON'T blame him, as many do, for Timonen, which on its own merits was an all-time whiff.
- John Jaeckel

What gets really tiresome honestly, is all this after the fact, smartass garbage about how people go overboard attacking Bowman, "the greatest GM in NHL history."

In truth, considering the body of talent he inherited in 2009, he has done a good job at times and not the greatest job at other times. Like I said, we'd be talking about a lot of second round picks in a great draft right now, instead of all this, were it not for his "big trades" for Kimmo Timonen and David Rundblad (who still sucks by the way), or am I missing something?

No GM is perfect. The good ones quickly recognize and correct their mistakes. Bowman had a bad day Friday, no amount of spinning here or elsewhere is going to change that. They all do. Now we see what he does to shore it up.

What gets really tiresome honestly, is all this after the fact, smartass garbage about how people go overboard attacking Bowman, "the greatest GM in NHL history."

In truth, considering the body of talent he inherited in 2009, he has done a good job at times and not the greatest job at other times. Like I said, we'd be talking about a lot of second round picks in a great draft right now, instead of all this, were it not for his "big trades" for Kimmo Timonen and David Rundblad (who still sucks by the way), or am I missing something?

No GM is perfect. The good ones quickly recognize and correct their mistakes. Bowman had a bad day Friday, no amount of spinning here or elsewhere is going to change that. They all do. Now we see what he does to shore it up.
- John Jaeckel

Agree. Especially with that last bit. IMO the fact that you will make a mistake is a given. The biggest part and the thing that is the most telling is how you recover from that mistake -- kinda like ike Crow in net. So, what is Stan's next move?

Agree. Especially with that last bit. IMO the fact that you will make a mistake is a given. The biggest part and the thing that is the most telling is how you recover from that mistake -- kinda like ike Crow in net. So, what is Stan's next move?
- Marlowe

Thx,

I also agree with an earlier post that he should not make this his time to establish his rep as a great trader and just move the salary with the best offer he gets ASAP.

He is playing a very dangerous game by waiting it out. The market might come up to him, it might go the other direction. And it's not just Sharp he needs to move. Probably Bickell, possibly Versteeg.

He waited, waited, waited on Leddy and now all he has to show for that is Ville Pokka. Pokka is probably going to be an NHL player. But probably not the equal (or even close) of Nick Leddy.

What gets really tiresome honestly, is all this after the fact, smartass garbage about how people go overboard attacking Bowman, "the greatest GM in NHL history."

In truth, considering the body of talent he inherited in 2009, he has done a good job at times and not the greatest job at other times. Like I said, we'd be talking about a lot of second round picks in a great draft right now, instead of all this, were it not for his "big trades" for Kimmo Timonen and David Rundblad (who still sucks by the way), or am I missing something?

No GM is perfect. The good ones quickly recognize and correct their mistakes. Bowman had a bad day Friday, no amount of spinning here or elsewhere is going to change that. They all do. Now we see what he does to shore it up.
- John Jaeckel

Well put John and to be honest I'm a little tired of all of the genuflecting that goes on at times for Stan as I'm sure some others are. The first Cup winner and core was in place when he got the gig. He retooled the next two.

He's made some decent moves (Vermette and Oduya stand out to me) as well as players that have been drafted (Saad, Shaw, etc) but he's also whiffed big time on others. Or are we still celebrating the Marty Turco signing...? Nobody's perfect.

Or how bout those stellar defensive moves you mention above here. And the guy still thinks Runblad should be on the team...

God forbid you want to challenge something and want to have a debate the Bowman defenders go crazy.

I think your last paragraph sums it up quite nicely...he needs to move on and get players moved quickly unlike last summer with Leddy...let's hope he does just that.

What gets really tiresome honestly, is all this after the fact, smartass garbage about how people go overboard attacking Bowman, "the greatest GM in NHL history."

In truth, considering the body of talent he inherited in 2009, he has done a good job at times and not the greatest job at other times. Like I said, we'd be talking about a lot of second round picks in a great draft right now, instead of all this, were it not for his "big trades" for Kimmo Timonen and David Rundblad (who still sucks by the way), or am I missing something?

No GM is perfect. The good ones quickly recognize and correct their mistakes. Bowman had a bad day Friday, no amount of spinning here or elsewhere is going to change that. They all do. Now we see what he does to shore it up.
- John Jaeckel

Bad day Friday maybe, but all he was there to do was to try to offload a couple of players. If his college boy signings of Baun and Kero and the signing of the Russian kid were taken into account, the Hawks had an OK 2015 draft. A very good one if a couple of these guys turn into NHL players fairly quickly.

Glen Sather, Don Sweeney, Jim Benning, Jim Rutherford and a few others didn't do much to improve their teams this weekend either. Timing is everything. There is more action to come.

Bad day Friday maybe, but all he was there to do was to try to offload a couple of players. If his college boy signings of Baun and Kero and the signing of the Russian kid were taken into account, the Hawks had an OK 2015 draft. A very good one if a couple of these guys turn into NHL players fairly quickly.

Glen Sather, Don Sweeney, Jim Benning, Jim Rutherford and a few others didn't do much to improve their teams this weekend either. Timing is everything. There is more action to come.
- RickJ

Point is, it better come soon. The best return in this case might just be any return - quick.

Rangers achieve $600k cap savings with difference between Raanta and Talbot.
- Al

Maybe its just me, but I don't see that as a good deal for Rags

Talbot > Raanta + 600K

(I'm not directing this at you BetweenTheDots)

Sorta like people thinking they know anything about what's going on behind closed doors in the 'hawks war room right now.

"Stan's a bum", "McEgo", "infighting in the FO"....jesus christ, it doesn't take long for the stupid stick to make its appearance once again.
- darkman

Does anyone have the official time on it? Some were willing to give it a week before it reappeared. Just curious if the board was able to reach that goal.

Point is, it better come soon. The best return in this case might just be any return - quick.
- Marlowe

If it was Sept 15 I'd be concerned. It's June, there are options available with teams who want to add NHL veterans. The return will be what the market is willing to pay.

OK, there is a lot of validity to this, and a whole lot of stuff that's off.

You're right, none of us posting here, in all likelihood, knows "the deal" day to day in the Hawk front office. I go by what I have heard from multiple Hawk employees including in hockey ops. But even then, no, I am not the fly on the wall. Nor, therefore, do we know what the offers have been or haven't been—100% for sure.

As for "organizational" control/hand-tying and "Scotty wouldn't let Stanley take the job if that were the case." Well, McDonough pretty much said publicly that Tallon didn't operate the way he wanted—he wanted more of a "corporate" decision-making process. And no father is going to tell his son not to accept a promotion to the GM job of the imminent Stanley Cup Champs. Come on.

To assume that there were no conversations or offers made for Sharp is sort of almost beyond naive. And so ASSUMING THERE WERE, then the conversation about overplaying his hand at least becomes valid as far as asking the question.

As far as the assertion about 3 Cups giving him all this credibility and freedom.

First, he had next to nothing to do with the first Cup. OK? Really.

Second, Cups 1, 2 and 3 don't happen without some or all of the following players: Toews, Kane, Hossa, Keith, Seabrook, Sharp, Bolland, Crawford, Kruger—all acquired by one of the previous two GMs. Yes, you can give Bowman a pretty fair amount of credit on 2 and 3 for filling in, hitting on Saad and Shaw, etc.

I give him credit for stepping up and acquiring Vermette this year, but I will also tell you I heard, again through a HAWK source, that McDonough himself had to intervene and tell him to do whatever it takes. Bowman himself, I was told, was being "too conservative."

So that's also why I WON'T blame him, as many do, for Timonen, which on its own merits was an all-time whiff.
- John Jaeckel

My point about Bowmans/McD dynamics was more from the Scottys pov, I understand if Stan is offered GM job and he is paper boy at time you take it whatever circumstances, I just wonder why Scotty is still around if him and his son are so micromanaged, does he really needs that paycheck

I agree with you that Stan has not much to do with 1st cup because he inherited everything, but after they won the cup he had to sell off half of the team. What if he is not matching Hammers offer sheet, what if he is trading Seabrook in 2010 for "better return", I don't think we are having 2013, 2015.

I don't want to sound like Stanley apologist because I am not, I just think he should get little longer rope for what he traded for or didn't traded at all from what he inherited. I've seen many GMs winning TDL, drafts, free agencies and their teams season ends in April every year. I'll take conservative Stanley at this point over other gunslinging GM there is.

Maybe its just me, but I don't see that as a good deal for Rags

Talbot > Raanta + 600K
- vabeachbear

Isn't it more like Talbot and Haggerty in exchange for 3 mid round picks, Raanta and $600K in cap savings?

Second, Cups 1, 2 and 3 don't happen without some or all of the following players: Toews, Kane, Hossa, Keith, Seabrook, Sharp, Bolland, Crawford, Kruger—all acquired by one of the previous two GMs. Yes, you can give Bowman a pretty fair amount of credit on 2 and 3 for filling in, hitting on Saad and Shaw, etc.

I give him credit for stepping up and acquiring Vermette this year, but I will also tell you I heard, again through a HAWK source, that McDonough himself had to intervene and tell him to do whatever it takes. Bowman himself, I was told, was being "too conservative."

So that's also why I WON'T blame him, as many do, for Timonen, which on its own merits was an all-time whiff.
- John Jaeckel

I don't think Stan is the greatest GM or the whole corporate decision making thing is the way to go either, but he has had his moments, and his faults like any GM.

Also I don't like the fact that a lot of people give Tallon all the credit for the 1st Cup(not saying you give him all the credit JJ). Keith,Seabrook and Crow weren't drafted by Tallon. And from what I remember JJ, I believe it was you who said that the older Bowman was part of the reason they drafted Kruger, and went out to get Hossa and let Havlat leave, which turns out was the best move.

Smith,Pulford,Tallon and Bowman all made crap decisions at one point or another, and they all made very good decisions at one point or another, so I give credit to all of them for the 3 Cups honestly.

Where I think you hit the nail on the head is that Stan needs to act quicker and correct some of his mistakes, and not repeat the ones he has made like waiting to trade Leddy...but again that could be the whole corporate decision hand cuffing him a bit as well

If it was Sept 15 I'd be concerned. It's June, there are options available with teams who want to add NHL veterans. The return will be what the market is willing to pay.
- RickJ

If nothing's done by mid September I will be right there with you. I think if nothing's done around free agent signing or shortly thereafter, it will be a long period of crickets chirping until maybe early October - like with Leddy. A lot of your ability to move merchandise has to do with timing and when there's a market for what you're selling. Players need to be moved before rosters are set.

Isn't it more like Talbot and Haggerty in exchange for 3 mid round picks, Raanta and $600K in cap savings?
- RickJ

It is, my comment was only about the cap savings part of it. Al's comment was about the 600K savings they got out of the deal.

I think Talbot is pretty good, and even though he usually played well, Raanta always scared me.

My point about Bowmans/McD dynamics was more from the Scottys pov, I understand if Stan is offered GM job and he is paper boy at time you take it whatever circumstances, I just wonder why Scotty is still around if him and his son are so micromanaged, does he really needs that paycheck

I agree with you that Stan has not much to do with 1st cup because he inherited everything, but after they won the cup he had to sell off half of the team. What if he is not matching Hammers offer sheet, what if he is trading Seabrook in 2010 for "better return", I don't think we are having 2013, 2015.

I don't want to sound like Stanley apologist because I am not, I just think he should get little longer rope for what he traded for or didn't traded at all from what he inherited. I've seen many GMs winning TDL, drafts, free agencies and their teams season ends in April every year. I'll take conservative Stanley at this point over other gunslinging GM there is.
- TS-40

That!

Has Stan whiffed on trades? Yes. Did he get max return in 2010? No not really.

Wouldn't call myself an apologist either but I find it funny people want to torch the guy for not doing anything splashy at the draft right after they won the Cup.

I'm hoping he does something soon as well but like Rick mentioned it's June/July...not September.

If it was Sept 15 I'd be concerned. It's June, there are options available with teams who want to add NHL veterans. The return will be what the market is willing to pay.
- RickJ

The concern should be that the return for Sharp/Bickell becomes negative after a point as teams drop out of the market because they've satsfied their needs elsewhere - and Stan has to give incentives - keep cap hit, take back a bad cap-hit contract - that winds up costing them MORE than Sharp/Bickell/Versteeg (and Oduya).

If it was Sept 15 I'd be concerned. It's June, there are options available with teams who want to add NHL veterans. The return will be what the market is willing to pay.
- RickJ

Quit with the logic.

Assessing the offseason job performance of a GM before the offseason ends seems illogical and unfair, imo.

I don't think Stan is the greatest GM or the whole corporate decision making thing is the way to go either, but he has had his moments, and his faults like any GM.

Also I don't like the fact that a lot of people give Tallon all the credit for the 1st Cup(not saying you give him all the credit JJ). Keith,Seabrook and Crow weren't drafted by Tallon. And from what I remember JJ, I believe it was you who said that the older Bowman was part of the reason they drafted Kruger, and went out to get Hossa and let Havlat leave, which turns out was the best move.

Smith,Pulford,Tallon and Bowman all made crap decisions at one point or another, and they all made very good decisions at one point or another, so I give credit to all of them for the 3 Cups honestly.

Where I think you hit the nail on the head is that Stan needs to act quicker and correct some of his mistakes, and not repeat the ones he has made like waiting to trade Leddy...but again that could be the whole corporate decision hand cuffing him a bit as well
- captainserious

Agree, and hoping his comments on Rundblad is more him posturing than being honest. I'd much rather have them sign Rozy to a cheap deal if they can as a 7th dman than DR.

The concern should be that the return for Sharp/Bickell becomes negative after a point as teams drop out of the market because they've satsfied their needs elsewhere - and Stan has to give incentives - keep cap hit, take back a bad cap-hit contract - that winds up costing them MORE than Sharp/Bickell/Versteeg (and Oduya).
- StLBravesFan

You're making assumptions based on unknown facts. Perhaps he still has several teams interested. Maybe he never had a reasonable offer. We'll never see all the facts, which is why it comes down to the performance of the team he puts together.

The concern should be that the return for Sharp/Bickell becomes negative after a point as teams drop out of the market because they've satsfied their needs elsewhere - and Stan has to give incentives - keep cap hit, take back a bad cap-hit contract - that winds up costing them MORE than Sharp/Bickell/Versteeg (and Oduya).
- StLBravesFan

Do we know that anyone dropped out of the market for Sharp? The only thing we have is JJ report of the Dallas deal. He says its from one of his good sources, so I would assume there is validity to it.

Some points on the Dallas deal;

1.) I would think the Hawks would rather trade him east, so if Stan was talking the frame work of deals with eastern teams, he would want to get through that first.

2.) Trade had Roussel coming back, could it be Hawks know they can't take any salary back, even 2 mil?

3.) Do we know that Sharp would waive to go there? If he wouldn't, do you think the Hawks would throw him under the bus and let public that information?

4.) If Dallas thought it was a good trade on Friday, why would they still not do it today. Its not like they went out and spent 7 mil on a winger and don't have the space anymore.

I don't think Stan is the greatest GM or the whole corporate decision making thing is the way to go either, but he has had his moments, and his faults like any GM.

Also I don't like the fact that a lot of people give Tallon all the credit for the 1st Cup(not saying you give him all the credit JJ). Keith,Seabrook and Crow weren't drafted by Tallon. And from what I remember JJ, I believe it was you who said that the older Bowman was part of the reason they drafted Kruger, and went out to get Hossa and let Havlat leave, which turns out was the best move.

Smith,Pulford,Tallon and Bowman all made crap decisions at one point or another, and they all made very good decisions at one point or another, so I give credit to all of them for the 3 Cups honestly.

Where I think you hit the nail on the head is that Stan needs to act quicker and correct some of his mistakes, and not repeat the ones he has made like waiting to trade Leddy...but again that could be the whole corporate decision hand cuffing him a bit as well
- captainserious

Where's the evidence that they got less for Leddy because they waited? Is this a real thing, or an opinion?

Agree, and hoping his comments on Rundblad is more him posturing than being honest. I'd much rather have them sign Rozy to a cheap deal if they can as a 7th dman than DR.
- HawkintheD

I agree...Rundblad has to go