Where's the evidence that they got less for Leddy because they waited? Is this a real thing, or an opinion?
- mohel

This opinion was floated and it seems to have become fact.

Where's the evidence that they got less for Leddy because they waited? Is this a real thing, or an opinion?
- mohel

Just my opinion honestly...It was a buyers market, just like it is now,everyone knew they were cap strapped, just like they are now..It would be impossible to know if they could have gotten more, that is unless someone from the organization would tell you

But I could be wrong, like I said, it is just my opinion

Just my opinion honestly...It was a buyers market, just like it is now,everyone knew they were cap strapped, just like they are now..It would be impossible to know if they could have gotten more, that is unless someone from the organization would tell you

But I could be wrong, like I said, it is just my opinion
- captainserious

Fair enough.

My point about Bowmans/McD dynamics was more from the Scottys pov, I understand if Stan is offered GM job and he is paper boy at time you take it whatever circumstances, I just wonder why Scotty is still around if him and his son are so micromanaged, does he really needs that paycheck

I agree with you that Stan has not much to do with 1st cup because he inherited everything, but after they won the cup he had to sell off half of the team. What if he is not matching Hammers offer sheet, what if he is trading Seabrook in 2010 for "better return", I don't think we are having 2013, 2015.

I don't want to sound like Stanley apologist because I am not, I just think he should get little longer rope for what he traded for or didn't traded at all from what he inherited. I've seen many GMs winning TDL, drafts, free agencies and their teams season ends in April every year. I'll take conservative Stanley at this point over other gunslinging GM there is.
- TS-40

Okay so he didn't trade Sharp yet and things didn't work out draft day but common really we could very easily be the Penguins 2 dynamic players and 1cup. I will take someone who is patient and methodical over any GM who is impatient and has no discipline. Also if they are following the Red Wing mold of success this may be how things are done in Detroit if decisions are being made by committee whatever it is it's worked so far. I was very skeptical of Bowman but no longer and it'll be interesting to see how this plays out.

This opinion was floated and it seems to have become fact.
- paulr

"When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."

If Sharp would have been traded for a 4th and 7th yesterday the same people would be saying "oh man Bowman should have held out" "he got fleeced because this draft was too deep and nobody wanted to give up top picks."

Really anywhere outside the top 10 was there any name that was called where you were thinking MAN I WISH WE TRADED SHARP for_____<--insert draftee's name. Furthermore for me there was no way bowman was going to get into the top 10 for Sharp with all other teams knowing Stan had to move him. I think someone else said it best if the Dalas offer was really an offer they wanted why would that offer still not be on the table. Makes no sense. No matter what I dont think the team is going to get any real game changing prospect for Sharp, Its just not going to happen and if it does its Bowman would be pulling a rabbit out of the hat.

The concern should be that the return for Sharp/Bickell becomes negative after a point as teams drop out of the market because they've satsfied their needs elsewhere - and Stan has to give incentives - keep cap hit, take back a bad cap-hit contract - that winds up costing them MORE than Sharp/Bickell/Versteeg (and Oduya).
- StLBravesFan

All of this is hypothetical until the market does what it does. In my world, Sharp is the only one of the 3 who has value in today's market. A GM looking to add a solid NHL'er to his roster will buy - what will he pay - who knows? It is a $12M commitment without giving up anything in return to the seller.

On the other hand, Bickell and Versteeg are likely just giveaways to purchase back cap space. No amount of lipstick on those 2 guys is going to change the market's current valuation on them.

This opinion was floated and it seems to have become fact.
- paulr

To be fair, I am on your side of this, but debated it yesterday with Al.

His point was not so much that there was this deal or that deal available, as much as it was that logic dictated that there was more available at the draft and start of FA than there was the day before the season started. Theoretically, a valid point.

My big issue with the Leddy trade debate is I just don't see what others do. I don't think there should have been a great deal for the hawks out in the market for him. I don't think he's a top pairing guy, not sure I think he's a second pairing guy.

If we are all allowed to make assumptions on what goes on in the minds of other GMs, I'm going to assume that there are more than a few GMs who saw it like I did. Simply by the fact that none of the stepped up and made a deal for him.

Thus, that's why I don't think there should've been a great return for what I think is a good 3rd pairing guy (at least on a cup winning team) who was going to want north of 5 mil a year.

That is why I keep saying hawks will in the long run win that trade, because Pokka will be a 3rd pairing guy who makes 1 mil vs. a 3rd pairing guy who makes 5 mil +

Again, you can flame me, but its just my opinion, from what I see of him.

I know I would be pissed if the Hawks traded Sharp and ate half his salary

OK, there is a lot of validity to this, and a whole lot of stuff that's off.

You're right, none of us posting here, in all likelihood, knows "the deal" day to day in the Hawk front office. I go by what I have heard from multiple Hawk employees including in hockey ops. But even then, no, I am not the fly on the wall. Nor, therefore, do we know what the offers have been or haven't been—100% for sure.

As for "organizational" control/hand-tying and "Scotty wouldn't let Stanley take the job if that were the case." Well, McDonough pretty much said publicly that Tallon didn't operate the way he wanted—he wanted more of a "corporate" decision-making process. And no father is going to tell his son not to accept a promotion to the GM job of the imminent Stanley Cup Champs. Come on.

To assume that there were no conversations or offers made for Sharp is sort of almost beyond naive. And so ASSUMING THERE WERE, then the conversation about overplaying his hand at least becomes valid as far as asking the question.

As far as the assertion about 3 Cups giving him all this credibility and freedom.

First, he had next to nothing to do with the first Cup. OK? Really.

Second, Cups 1, 2 and 3 don't happen without some or all of the following players: Toews, Kane, Hossa, Keith, Seabrook, Sharp, Bolland, Crawford, Kruger—all acquired by one of the previous two GMs. Yes, you can give Bowman a pretty fair amount of credit on 2 and 3 for filling in, hitting on Saad and Shaw, etc.

I give him credit for stepping up and acquiring Vermette this year, but I will also tell you I heard, again through a HAWK source, that McDonough himself had to intervene and tell him to do whatever it takes. Bowman himself, I was told, was being "too conservative."

So that's also why I WON'T blame him, as many do, for Timonen, which on its own merits was an all-time whiff.
- John Jaeckel

He didnt say there were NO conversations for Sharp, he said most likely judging from the fact the other teams knew Stan is dealing from a position of weakness that the offers may have been low ball offers.

To be fair, I am on your side of this, but debated it yesterday with Al.

His point was not so much that there was this deal or that deal available, as much as it was that logic dictated that there was more available at the draft and start of FA than there was the day before the season started. Theoretically, a valid point.

My big issue with the Leddy trade debate is I just don't see what others do. I don't think there should have been a great deal for the hawks out in the market for him. I don't think he's a top pairing guy, not sure I think he's a second pairing guy.

If we are all allowed to make assumptions on what goes on in the minds of other GMs, I'm going to assume that there are more than a few GMs who saw it like I did. Simply by the fact that none of the stepped up and made a deal for him.

Thus, that's why I don't think there should've been a great return for what I think is a good 3rd pairing guy (at least on a cup winning team) who was going to want north of 5 mil a year.

That is why I keep saying hawks will in the long run win that trade, because Pokka will be a 3rd pairing guy who makes 1 mil vs. a 3rd pairing guy who makes 5 mil +

Again, you can flame me, but its just my opinion, from what I see of him.
- vabeachbear

I might if I didn't agree with you.

All of this is hypothetical until the market does what it does. In my world, Sharp is the only one of the 3 who has value in today's market. A GM looking to add a solid NHL'er to his roster will buy - what will he pay - who knows? It is a $12M commitment without giving up anything in return to the seller.

On the other hand, Bickell and Versteeg are likely just giveaways to purchase back cap space. No amount of lipstick on those 2 guys is going to change the market's current valuation on them.
- RickJ

Think he may have to include a prospect to dump Bickell, Versteeg played pretty good in the finals, with only half of his salary included, I would think they could trade him for a mid round pick.

That being said, Bickells commit is still only 8 mil and two years, he should fit with a team that needs to get to the floor.

Wasn't there a rumor someone offered the Rangers 2 2nd round picks for Talbot? In the end he goes for less kind of weekend it was

When trading players their value is highest at the trade deadline, then their value would be at the next highest right before the draft/first day of the draft and right after the "big name" free agents are signed. I am glad the Hawks didn't trade Sharp after the first day of the draft for lower picks.

How does Lehner get the return he did on Friday but on Saturday Talbot goes for peanuts and Raanta goes for a career minor leaguer to a bottom 6 guy? Trade values change at different times.

I think the Boston and Islander trades made the trade market less valuable then it originally was. When teams are getting young, current, top 6/top 2 players or a couple years ago #4 pick for less then Sharp's asking price, Sharp's value went down a lot and the writing was on the wall.

With that being said I think they need to move Bickell ASAP (as long as a team takes his full contract) so we can re-sign our Free agents and be flexible,during free agency, to try to get a vet (and not be over 10% of the cap).

I think Raanta was a goner even if Crawford gets traded. No way you start the year with Darling and Raanta. If Crawford goes, they will get a more experience goalie via trade or free agency imho.
- stljam

That goalie was supposed to be Niemi. Had they brought him in, then we'd know something was afoot. Not sure who the experienced goalie would be now. I can't imagine Raanta would have been the worst backup to have, though I admit there were times he scared me.

Teams that don't spend to the cap don't care about the cap hit. So I think there will be plenty of teams who will want 81 as a part timer who can teach their young guys a few things about the 200 ft game especially at 1 mill a year.
- busmaster

The cap hit doesn't change, though. And because of the front loaded contract, there are other complications involved should be not finish it out here.

It is a business and Kane sells tickets. They are not going to sign him to an eight year contract and trade him before the contract even starts. Its bad business.
- TTtime

I think it is extremely unlikely that he gets moved this summer. I just think the chance is greater than 0%.

JJ

At what point does McD. and co realize that our "corporate" decision making process needs to be shortened?

I believe this is McD's doing but now after the umpteenth time this pretty much same scenario has worked out you would think someone would say "Hey, our slow decisions are netting us Ville Pokka/David Rundblad. Let's try to speed this up and get some value while we can."

It's extremely hard to fault an organization that has done way more right than wrong to us in the past 8 years but at some point the hesitation and lack of risk taking (if you could call trading Sharp while cap strapped risk taking) is going to be too great for our Core to overcome.

He didnt say there were NO conversations for Sharp, he said most likely judging from the fact the other teams knew Stan is dealing from a position of weakness that the offers may have been and most likely were low ball offers.
- mvp0207

So lets just pile on the Vermette "hit" this year. What about the fact he had to reup guys like Seabrook who when it happened most here said was an overpay. I remember debates of trading Seabrook to the Oilers for Jeff Petry and Magnus Paajarvi and countless other crazy scenarios of how Stan failed. People complained Sharp was an overpay and OH MY the outcry that Crawford was an overpay. What about Oduya (I remember all the pizza man comments about him and how horrible he was with serving up pucks for turnovers) BUT he was a staple with these cup runs. Or how dare he draft these "smurfs" like Krueger and TT. Oh and HOW DO I REMEMBER the 2011 TRADE KANE lynch mob . What about Hossa, I guess thats a different debate if you dont give Stan.Scott credit for that. What about pick ups like Frolik Ricahrds and Roszival all impact role players in these cup runs. and to a lesser extent the minor role players like Handzus and DesJardin. And then of course Shaw and Saad(Oh I remember the debates on Saad and how there MUST be something wrong with him if he fell that deep and how a prospect is nothing but a prospect and most will never amount to squat, but now this year he failed because he could not pick up one of said prospects for Sharp) What about the fact he acquired BOTH Kim Johnsson and Nick Leddy for one Cam freaking Barker in the first place. What about the fact that at the first purge it was obvious the choice was either Niemi or Hjarlmarson and, not all but A LOT of people were saying Niemi ( and how Doug wilson stole Niemi by offer sheeting Hammer forcing the Hawks to choose) Bowman choose wisely in a cornerstone in Hammer

Stan apologist..... MCD apolgist yes I am and yes I am. Lets see the Hawks won 3 cups in their 84 YEAR pre-bowman/McD existence and doubled that up in the last 6. What else do they need to do, how many more do they need to win for us to become apologists and not freak out because hes having a hard time moving an aging winger coming off a so/so year where his age showed and EVERYONE knows he needs to get moved.

Eh same old same old

JJ

At what point does McD. and co realize that our "corporate" decision making process needs to be shortened?

I believe this is McD's doing but now after the umpteenth time this pretty much same scenario has worked out you would think someone would say "Hey, our slow decisions are netting us Ville Pokka/David Rundblad. Let's try to speed this up and get some value while we can."

It's extremely hard to fault an organization that has done way more right than wrong to us in the past 8 years but at some point the hesitation and lack of risk taking (if you could call trading Sharp while cap strapped risk taking) is going to be too great for our Core to overcome.
- hawks1921

McDonough meddling in hockey affairs again!

So lets just pile on the Vermette "hit" this year. What about the fact he had to reup guys like Seabrook who when it happened most here said was an overpay. I remember debates of trading Seabrook to the Oilers for Jeff Petry and Magnus Paajarvi and countless other crazy scenarios of how Stan failed. People complained Sharp was an overpay and OH MY the outcry that Crawford was an overpay. What about Oduya (I remember all the pizza man comments about him and how horrible he was with serving up pucks for turnovers) BUT he was a staple with these cup runs. Or how dare he draft these "smurfs" like Krueger and TT. In addition In my opinion the Hossa deal had Bowman's name written all over it . What about pick ups like Frolik Ricahrds and Roszival all impact role players in these cup runs. and to a lesser extent the minor role players like Handzus and DesJardin. And then of course Shaw and Saad(Oh I remember the debates on Saad and how there MUST be something wrong with him if he fell that deep and how a prospect is nothing but a prospect and most will never amount to squat) What about the fact he acquired BOTH Kim Johnsson and Nick Leddy for one Cam Barker in the first place. What about the fact that at the first purge it was obvious the choice was either Niemi or Hjarlmarson and, not all but A LOT of people were saying Niemi ( and how Doug wilson stole Niemi by offer sheeting Hammer forcing the Hawks to choose) Bowman choose wisely in a cornerstone in Hammer

Stan apologist..... MCD apolgist yes I am and yes I am. Lets see the Hawks won 3 cups in their pre-bowman/McD existence and doubled that up in he last 6. What else do they need to do for us to become apologists and not freak out because hes having a hard time moving an aging winger coming off a so/so year where his age showed and VERYONE knows he needs to get moved.

Eh same old same old
- mvp0207

Kool-Aid drinker!

McDonough meddling in hockey affairs again!

- biegs

This is just crazy. The Hawks as a sports organization have made a historic and one of the quickest turnarounds in any Sport and any franchise EVER in North American sports. Just 10 or so years ago they were the most antiquated backwards franchise in ALL major sports, ranking at the bottom of the list in ALL categories barely selling 4000 or so tickets per game. They could not GIVE them away

This turnaround under McD has been nothing short of miraculous, its netted three {FRRANKING} THREE Stanley cups and DYNASTY status and a team that sells out for scrimmage games in late august and now ranks near the top amongst the great north American franchises.

My only hope is you are using sarcasm and joking.

This is just crazy. The Hawks as a sports organization have made a historic and one of the quickest turnarounds in any Sport and any franchise EVER on North American sports. Just 10 or so years ago they were the most antiquated backwards franchise is ALL major sports, ranking at the bottom of the list in ALL categories barely selling 400 or so tickets per game.

This turnaround under McD has been nothing short of miraculous, its netted three {FRRANKING} THREE Stanley cups and a team that sells out for scrimmage games in late august and now ranks near the top amongst the great north American franchises.

My only hope is you are using sarcasm and joking.
- mvp0207

Oh we are on the same page, trust me.

This is just crazy. The Hawks as a sports organization have made a historic and one of the quickest turnarounds in any Sport and any franchise EVER on North American sports. Just 10 or so years ago they were the most antiquated backwards franchise is ALL major sports, ranking at the bottom of the list in ALL categories barely selling 400 or so tickets per game.

This turnaround under McD has been nothing short of miraculous, its netted three {FRRANKING} THREE Stanley cups and a team that sells out for scrimmage games in late august and now ranks near the top amongst the great north American franchises.

Its like I'm in bizzaro world
- mvp0207

What do you mean like?

Ten years ago if you'd have told anyone here (me too for that matter) that the Hawks would right the ship and double their Cup total, you'd have said they were hitting the crack pipe...real hard like.

What gets really tiresome honestly, is all this after the fact, smartass garbage about how people go overboard attacking Bowman, "the greatest GM in NHL history."

In truth, considering the body of talent he inherited in 2009, he has done a good job at times and not the greatest job at other times. Like I said, we'd be talking about a lot of second round picks in a great draft right now, instead of all this, were it not for his "big trades" for Kimmo Timonen and David Rundblad (who still sucks by the way), or am I missing something?

No GM is perfect. The good ones quickly recognize and correct their mistakes. Bowman had a bad day Friday, no amount of spinning here or elsewhere is going to change that. They all do. Now we see what he does to shore it up.
- John Jaeckel

I liken Stan Bowman to a chef who took over a pretty good restaurant just after it becomes successful. The old chef made the menu, based on his own style and possibly with some of the dishes from the previous chef, but now it's Stan's turn. He can either retool the whole menu and do whatever he wants, which is risky, or he can evaluate each dish on the menu and choose which ones to keep and which ones complement others, and then choose to add what he feels is necessary to keep the restaurant operating at a high level.

That's what I think Stan has done, and that's still not an easy thing to do. Stan is operating a three Michelin star restaurant, and even though he may not have built it, it's his job to keep it running at that three star level, year after year. In the business world, this is a very valuable skill. How many businesses start up and become extraordinarily successful only to bomb because they were mismanaged?

I think people often forget that the word "manager" is part of GM. It doesn't matter what the situation looked like when he got there, it only matters how he dealt with that situation, and so far, if you're going based on results, he's done everything you've asked him to do. One man has doubled the number of championships this team has won, and he's done it in a fifth of the time it took to win the first three.

He's earned my trust to do whatever he wants to do until this team stops being competitive. At that point, you can reevaluate. But for now, based on what he's chosen to do, missteps and all, I'm putting him among my top 3 GMs without thinking twice.