ROR contract is a travesty. He's a 5 million dollar hockey player making 2.5 million dollars more then he's worth. You can blame it on the offer sheet that the Calgary Flames tendered to him a few years back. When the Avs matched, he was not forced to take a bridge contract and started to receive the money that an older UFA would receive. Subsequent contracts included a higher level then the previous contract. He felt entitled to a raise each contract. He is overpaid and Buffalo will rue the day that they signed this abomination of a contract. It's David Clarkson all over again.
- JohnnyReb

Or he'll be awesome and be worth every penny.

Rattled

ROR contract is a travesty. He's a 5 million dollar hockey player making 2.5 million dollars more then he's worth. You can blame it on the offer sheet that the Calgary Flames tendered to him a few years back. When the Avs matched, he was not forced to take a bridge contract and started to receive the money that an older UFA would receive. Subsequent contracts included a higher level then the previous contract. He felt entitled to a raise each contract. He is overpaid and Buffalo will rue the day that they signed this abomination of a contract. It's David Clarkson all over again.
- JohnnyReb

Clarkson signed that contract at 30 and his highest career point total was 46. O'Reilly is 24 and has surpassed that in every season he's played in outside his rookie and sophomore year.

Oh and there's all that advanced stat stuff that says O'Reilly has been great and will continue to be whereas pretty much everyone outside of leafs nation knew clarkson was going to be a disaster.

drink a few beers as well

we are on the same page


- homiedclown

I had more than a few and didn't make it back, or else I would've rivaled you

Kane and O'Reilly each have 1(Yes that's 1) 20 goal season


Effin Superstars
- sbroads24

Is everything measured in goals and points?

Grigorenko played at 18
Myers played at 19
Zadorov at 19

Meaningless point
- sbroads24

Grigorenko had to be sent back to juniors twice, and played AHL most of this season. He couldn't stick at 18 years old in the NHL, or he'd still be on the Sabres.

Im not sure what Myers has to do with this discussion.

Zadorov probably shouldn't have played in the NHL this year. Almost here by default because his junior team didn't want him back. He played well for stretches and had huge upside I was excited about. I do hate that we crushed our LHD depth, but Ill take ROR.

No mention of Armia, Compher or Lemiuex? They didn't play at 18?

Grigorenko played at 18
Nyquist doesn't sniff the NHL until 22 or 23


Who do you take?
- sbroads24

I take the player who wasn't rushed to the NHL and properly developed in one of the best prospect systems in the entire NHL... something that should've happened with Grigo.

Your post I commented on said NOTHING about the guys we just got
It basically said the guys we gave up stink
And the prospects we have are all better


"Armia is bordering on bust.
Gringo is still an AHL player that is being forced to NHL or waiver claim.
Lemiuex is NOWHERE close to being more NHL ready compared to Bailey, Baptiste, McCabe, Ullmark, Fasching... I'd take all 4 over Lemiuex.
The picks... nowhere close to being NHL ready compared to the prospects in the system for a couple years.
Youre wrong."


That's NOT "realism"
Not even close
And u can't add either, lol

U like the trades?
Ok, fine... Me too
Acting like all we gave up was Crap is just nonsense though
- jdfitz77

I was replying to a comment that said the players we gave up were more NHL ready than some of our other prospects, which isn't even true. We gave up spare parts in our prospect pool. Then we acquired actual NHL players, who are better, Its all relative.

What is the point in worrying about what Armia, Lemiuex, Compher, Grigorenko become when we got the proven NHL players who are 24 years or younger? We have at least 8 years to restock the prospect pool while these guys are on our team....

I also never said anything we gave up was "crap". Just that they were no more ready to see the NHL than other prospects, or people we already have on the team. That's realism. They were all expendable because of this.

Rattled
- jochfr

I had more than a few and didn't make it back, or else I would've rivaled you




.
- theblueandgold

the beer influenced my blue jacket tribute

this was well played in the forum

http://www.hockeybuzz.com...read.php?thread_id=127888

I think most people believe we could use an upgrade on RW. Why not bring back Chris Stewart? I know his possession numbers were pretty abysmal, but on a line with Eichel he could offer protection and have a much smaller role in responsibility. I think he could probably put up 20-25 goals with Eichel. This would also allow us to start Reinhart in Rochester or maybe in a smaller role as 3rd line center or even a wing with Larsson playing the middle. Thoughts?

I think most people believe we could use an upgrade on RW. Why not bring back Chris Stewart? I know his possession numbers were pretty abysmal, but on a line with Eichel he could offer protection and have a much smaller role in responsibility. I think he could probably put up 20-25 goals with Eichel. This would also allow us to start Reinhart in Rochester or maybe in a smaller role as 3rd line center or even a wing with Larsson playing the middle. Thoughts?
- Pierceme69

he can't be coached that's why he's still free I will be shocked if a contending team or a playoff team signs him the only teams that are going to want him are probably bottom out teams

he can't be coached that's why he's still free I will be shocked if a contending team or a playoff team signs him the only teams that are going to want him are probably bottom out teams
- gerbe75pts

If that's true he will end up in Arizona.

I had more than a few and didn't make it back, or else I would've rivaled you




Is everything measured in goals and points?



Grigorenko had to be sent back to juniors twice, and played AHL most of this season. He couldn't stick at 18 years old in the NHL, or he'd still be on the Sabres.

Im not sure what Myers has to do with this discussion.

Zadorov probably shouldn't have played in the NHL this year. Almost here by default because his junior team didn't want him back. He played well for stretches and had huge upside I was excited about. I do hate that we crushed our LHD depth, but Ill take ROR.

No mention of Armia, Compher or Lemiuex? They didn't play at 18?



I take the player who wasn't rushed to the NHL and properly developed in one of the best prospect systems in the entire NHL... something that should've happened with Grigo.



I was replying to a comment that said the players we gave up were more NHL ready than some of our other prospects, which isn't even true. We gave up spare parts in our prospect pool. Then we acquired actual NHL players, who are better, Its all relative.

What is the point in worrying about what Armia, Lemiuex, Compher, Grigorenko become when we got the proven NHL players who are 24 years or younger? We have at least 8 years to restock the prospect pool while these guys are on our team....

I also never said anything we gave up was "crap". Just that they were no more ready to see the NHL than other prospects, or people we already have on the team. That's realism. They were all expendable because of this.
- theblueandgold

Agree with all of this

Let's say ROR is in Col this year and puts up 20/35 while in a second line wing role but maintains his excellent face off/takeaway/possession numbers. This time next year he's a ufa at age 25. Are there people from other fan bases that really believe he sees an offer under $6 mill a year? The reason he was paid $7.5 from buffalo is because they can utilize him the way Col couldn't. They are paying based on expectation but there is enough history in his game to suggest a Bergeron type impact. He's being paid to be a center, not a winger.

Let's say ROR is in Col this year and puts up 20/35 while in a second line wing role but maintains his excellent face off/takeaway/possession numbers. This time next year he's a ufa at age 25. Are there people from other fan bases that really believe he sees an offer under $6 mill a year? The reason he was paid $7.5 from buffalo is because they can utilize him the way Col couldn't. They are paying based on expectation but there is enough history in his game to suggest a Bergeron type impact. He's being paid to be a center, not a winger.
- Khymlev13

He easily gets what we gave him next year as a USA, hell Sekera got $5.5M for 6 years or some dumb ass thing.

I think most people believe we could use an upgrade on RW. Why not bring back Chris Stewart? I know his possession numbers were pretty abysmal, but on a line with Eichel he could offer protection and have a much smaller role in responsibility. I think he could probably put up 20-25 goals with Eichel. This would also allow us to start Reinhart in Rochester or maybe in a smaller role as 3rd line center or even a wing with Larsson playing the middle. Thoughts?
- Pierceme69

1) is he even an upgrade?
2) where do u play him? We already have 14 nhl forwards

Idk that he's any better than Foligno and/or Larsson...
Unless we trade one I them for a defenseman

If that's true he will end up in Arizona.
- Pierceme69

most likely or Carolina

He easily gets what we gave him next year as a USA, hell Sekera got $5.5M for 6 years or some dumb ass thing.
- BigStew

Right- and sekera is about 5 years older! People don't take age into consideration enough.

1) is he even an upgrade?
2) where do u play him? We already have 14 nhl forwards

Idk that he's any better than Foligno and/or Larsson...
Unless we trade one I them for a defenseman
- jdfitz77

Considering we don't have any natural RWs except Gionta I'd say he's an upgrade. He would play on the 2nd line with Eichel and presumably Moulson.

Let's say ROR is in Col this year and puts up 20/35 while in a second line wing role but maintains his excellent face off/takeaway/possession numbers. This time next year he's a ufa at age 25. Are there people from other fan bases that really believe he sees an offer under $6 mill a year? The reason he was paid $7.5 from buffalo is because they can utilize him the way Col couldn't. They are paying based on expectation but there is enough history in his game to suggest a Bergeron type impact. He's being paid to be a center, not a winger.
- Khymlev13

Some are female doging about the way it's structured with the $1 million base and the rest being paid in bonuses... Saying its cap circumvention and it's all buffalo's fault for the next strike.

I had more than a few and didn't make it back, or else I would've rivaled you




Is everything measured in goals and points?



Grigorenko had to be sent back to juniors twice, and played AHL most of this season. He couldn't stick at 18 years old in the NHL, or he'd still be on the Sabres.

Im not sure what Myers has to do with this discussion.

Zadorov probably shouldn't have played in the NHL this year. Almost here by default because his junior team didn't want him back. He played well for stretches and had huge upside I was excited about. I do hate that we crushed our LHD depth, but Ill take ROR.

No mention of Armia, Compher or Lemiuex? They didn't play at 18?



I take the player who wasn't rushed to the NHL and properly developed in one of the best prospect systems in the entire NHL... something that should've happened with Grigo.



I was replying to a comment that said the players we gave up were more NHL ready than some of our other prospects, which isn't even true. We gave up spare parts in our prospect pool. Then we acquired actual NHL players, who are better, Its all relative.

What is the point in worrying about what Armia, Lemiuex, Compher, Grigorenko become when we got the proven NHL players who are 24 years or younger? We have at least 8 years to restock the prospect pool while these guys are on our team....

I also never said anything we gave up was "crap". Just that they were no more ready to see the NHL than other prospects, or people we already have on the team. That's realism. They were all expendable because of this.
- theblueandgold

A. When has goals and points become secondary to something else?
B. Your point was that Compher and Armia weren't in the NHL at 18 and 19 like O'Reilly and Kane, therefore they have lower ceilings than them and there is no way they exceed what we project them to be.
C. You say Armia is bordering in bust, I say it's possible he's actually just being developed properly, and just because he's 22 does not mean he's a bust.

I like the O'Reilly trade and extension, I think he's a really good player who can put up 50 points and lock down another teams top line. I like it more than the Kane deal. I just think it's funny to act like the established players ALWAYS succeed after being traded more than their prospect counterparts

Who would you rather have if you were Ottawa right now? Silfverberg, Ritchie and Noesen......Or the 18 goal Bobby Ryan

ROR contract is a travesty. He's a 5 million dollar hockey player making 2.5 million dollars more then he's worth. You can blame it on the offer sheet that the Calgary Flames tendered to him a few years back. When the Avs matched, he was not forced to take a bridge contract and started to receive the money that an older UFA would receive. Subsequent contracts included a higher level then the previous contract. He felt entitled to a raise each contract. He is overpaid and Buffalo will rue the day that they signed this abomination of a contract. It's David Clarkson all over again.
- JohnnyReb

Thanks for stopping by with another Clarkson reference.

Clarkson is a piece of poop before and after his Laff's contract. ROR isn't. He actually has talent.

So, good on ya.

A. When has goals and points become secondary to something else?
B. Your point was that Compher and Armia weren't in the NHL at 18 and 19 like O'Reilly and Kane, therefore they have lower ceilings than them and there is no way they exceed what we project them to be.
C. You say Armia is bordering in bust, I say it's possible he's actually just being developed properly, and just because he's 22 does not mean he's a bust.

I like the O'Reilly trade and extension, I think he's a really good player who can put up 50 points and lock down another teams top line. I like it more than the Kane deal. I just think it's funny to act like the established players ALWAYS succeed after being traded more than their prospect counterparts

Who would you rather have if you were Ottawa right now? Silfverberg, Ritchie and Noesen......Or the 18 goal Bobby Ryan
- sbroads24

I personally never view a player by just goals and points. This is consistent with my arguments over the years on our players. Why I always disliked Vanek despite being a multiple 40 goal scorer. Why I always said Ennis was more valuable than Hodgson 2-3 seasons ago when we had Hodgson vs Ennis debates. Why I felt Pominville was one our best players from 07-08 until he got traded... The best players, the ones I value the most are complete players that have more than 1 dimension to their games.

They do have lower ceilings, and are less likely to hit them. I don't know why you value them more than ROR or Kane...

Armia has made zero improvement in his development over 4 years. To take a page from your book, how many times has he scored 20g in FIN or the AHL over 4 seasons since he was drafted? And this is a kid who is being touted as a goal scorer, and has NHL size...

Larsson is a perfect example of what you want to see out of development of a prospect in the AHL. He surpassed Armia and was less highly touted. Why? Hes a complete player.

As for the OTT trade, they still got the better player who has performed better than Silfverberg and Noesen might not even make the jump with ANA's depth...

I personally never view a player by just goals and points. This is consistent with my arguments over the years on our players. Why I always disliked Vanek despite being a multiple 40 goal scorer. Why I always said Ennis was more valuable than Hodgson 2-3 seasons ago when we had Hodgson vs Ennis debates. Why I felt Pominville was one our best players from 07-08 until he got traded... The best players, the ones I value the most are complete players that have more than 1 dimension to their games.

They do have lower ceilings, and are less likely to hit them. I don't know why you value them more than ROR or Kane...

Armia has made zero improvement in his development over 4 years. To take a page from your book, how many times has he scored 20g in FIN or the AHL over 4 seasons since he was drafted? And this is a kid who is being touted as a goal scorer, and has NHL size...

Larsson is a perfect example of what you want to see out of development of a prospect in the AHL. He surpassed Armia and was less highly touted. Why? Hes a complete player.

As for the OTT trade, they still got the better player who has performed better than Silfverberg and Noesen might not even make the jump with ANA's depth...
- theblueandgold

Regarding Bobby Ryan trade... OTT was able to make that trade because of Stone and Hoffman. You think they miss Noesen or Silfverberg over those 2 and Bobby Ryan?

I personally never view a player by just goals and points. This is consistent with my arguments over the years on our players. Why I always disliked Vanek despite being a multiple 40 goal scorer. Why I always said Ennis was more valuable than Hodgson 2-3 seasons ago when we had Hodgson vs Ennis debates. Why I felt Pominville was one our best players from 07-08 until he got traded... The best players, the ones I value the most are complete players that have more than 1 dimension to their games.

They do have lower ceilings, and are less likely to hit them. I don't know why you value them more than ROR or Kane...

Armia has made zero improvement in his development over 4 years. To take a page from your book, how many times has he scored 20g in FIN or the AHL over 4 seasons since he was drafted? And this is a kid who is being touted as a goal scorer, and has NHL size...

Larsson is a perfect example of what you want to see out of development of a prospect in the AHL. He surpassed Armia and was less highly touted. Why? Hes a complete player.

As for the OTT trade, they still got the better player who has performed better than Silfverberg and Noesen might not even make the jump with ANA's D depth...
- theblueandgold

Armia didn't play full seasons in the Elite league. He clipped at a 25-30 goal pace over 80 games there though, against men as a teenager.

He isn't a bust yet, at all.

And no I don't value all of them over the 3 we got.

However I do value losing all of these assets in a years period as possibly very detrimental

Grigorenko - 1st round pick
Armia - 1st round pick
Lemieux -early 2nd
Compher - early 2nd
Zadorov- 1st round pick
1st round pick -25th
1st round pick- 22nd
2nd rou d pick 31st.


That's a lot of assets to proclaim will never amount to anything decent.

If I had to guess, in 2 years we will look back on the Kane trade and realize we got burned. O'Reilly trade will probably be fine

Armia didn't play full seasons in the Elite league. He clipped at a 25-30 goal pace over 80 games there though, against men as a teenager.

He isn't a bust yet, at all.

And no I don't value all of them over the 3 we got.

However I do value losing all of these assets in a years period as possibly very detrimental

Grigorenko - 1st round pick
Armia - 1st round pick
Lemieux -early 2nd
Compher - early 2nd
Zadorov- 1st round pick
1st round pick -25th
1st round pick- 22nd
2nd rou d pick 31st.


That's a lot of assets to proclaim will never amount to anything decent.

If I had to guess, in 2 years we will look back on the Kane trade and realize we got burned. O'Reilly trade will probably be fine
- sbroads24

Lemiuex in competition with Bailey, Baptiste, Fasching.
Grigorenko, Compher in competition with Eichel, Reinhart, Girgensons, Larsson

You cant keep stockpiling picks and drafting players. Eventually they would get traded or lost... we turned those unknowns into proven players who are only 24... we are getting more than "decent".

The only real value we lost was Zadorov as it left a hole on our left side. Which by all indications could be filled by McCabe. And we have unproven upside in Martin (2nd rounder), Guhle (2nd rounder) and Stephens (5th rounder)

JT Compher is almost a sure thing to be a pretty good NHL'er. He does everything well. Brendan Lemieux is already exceeding expectations with how much he's scoring in juniors, and Zadorov was supposed to take 3-4 years to even play an NHL game.

Acting like we know how these guys will turn out is hilarity
- sbroads24

I could not disagree more on your take on Compher. While I do like his game, I have serious doubts that he'll ever score remotely consistently enough to be anything more than a bottom 6 NHL player at best.