If they free up 1.7 million in a Vinny buyout they could use that money to go out and sign a player like a Chris Stewart (apparently decent enough that Anaheim thinks he can help) or some other UFA that's still out there right now whose a much better player than Vinny.
Bring him in on a one year deal, you trade that player at the deadline or the player fits in and you have a piece for the team. Chris Stewart got a 2nd round pick for Buffalo last year.
I don't know, I take my chances in doing something like that than sit on Vinny and think his career can rebound under Hakstol. Not worth the 888k cap savings in 2021 - Just5
If the Flyers wanted to sign a player like Stewart, they can find away to do that. Seriously going to suggest that the Flyers are better off carrying that dead money on the cap in future years, just to go out and sign Chris Stewart? No thanks.
If you keep him this season, there is still a chance to work out a trade, however low those odds may be. Still a chance that Lecavalier, after another season of low ice time and scratches, decides to walk away. The Flyers don't need to add a player of Stewart's caliber that badly to buy him out right now. How much is that really going to improve the team?
Location: Be nice from now on, NJ Joined: 03.17.2006
Jul 16 @ 12:53 PM ET
I think I worded that badly.
What I'm saying is, Vinny would like the Flyers to buy him out or trade him and retain salary to make it work. The Flyers have refused to buy him out, and reportedly have refused to eat enough cash to make a deal work. In that regard, it could be said that the Flyers are playing hardball.
Now, if the Flyers want Vinny to help them out by agreeing to terminate, there's no incentive for Vinny to agree to do so, unless he has another deal waiting for him. So my comment was basically saying that if the Flyers want to play hardball, Vinny can turn around and do the same to them. He has no incentive to help them with their cap and take a financial hit. - Jsaquella
If the Flyers wanted to sign a player like Stewart, they can find away to do that. Seriously going to suggest that the Flyers are better off carrying that dead money on the cap in future years, just to go out and sign Chris Stewart? No thanks.
If you keep him this season, there is still a chance to work out a trade, however low those odds may be. Still a chance that Lecavalier, after another season of low ice time and scratches, decides to walk away. The Flyers don't need to add a player of Stewart's caliber that badly to buy him out right now. How much is that really going to improve the team? - MJL
It all depends on if they think theres a strong chance of him retiring next summer. If they think that than I understand it. If I'm Vinny theres no way I'm retiring. I've got the whole rest of my life to do nothing what a couple years in the Shelley suite.
Hell this could be one huge charade by both sides if theres an understanding he's going to retire next summer. Vinny obviously still wants to project that he's a good player, flyers still want see if someone will trade for him.
It works both ways. There have been plenty of situations where signing veteran older players has worked out. Nor do I think teams are always expecting players to play at a level they did in their prime when older. - MJL
I think where many of the mistakes get made is in the term of the contract. Good, veteran signings tend to be shorter term. If Vinny only had a two year deal at even a higher AAV, he would still be a bad signing but at least they wouldn't be in the situation they are in now. But would Vinny sign a deal like that? Maybe not. But the Flyers would have had a hard time offering a shorter term deal with higher AAV because they were up against the cap. Good cap management is not only not handing out long-term veteran deals like this, but also being in a position where other contract structures are possible. Good cap management teams don't hand out deals like Vinny got and because they don't they don't put themselves in a position where, in order to get a player, they need to.
What I'm saying is, Vinny would like the Flyers to buy him out or trade him and retain salary to make it work. The Flyers have refused to buy him out, and reportedly have refused to eat enough cash to make a deal work. In that regard, it could be said that the Flyers are playing hardball.
Now, if the Flyers want Vinny to help them out by agreeing to terminate, there's no incentive for Vinny to agree to do so, unless he has another deal waiting for him. So my comment was basically saying that if the Flyers want to play hardball, Vinny can turn around and do the same to them. He has no incentive to help them with their cap and take a financial hit. - Jsaquella
I agree with the sentiment of all of that except I wouldn't characterize VL as playing hardball in that case. I don't characterize an unwillingness to walk away from multiple millions as playing hardball. Nor would I characterize the Flyers actions as hardball either, really. They've got to make the best business decision for themselves that they can, even if that best move right now is to not make a move. For me, playing hardball means you're being somewhat Richardish about things. I wouldn't say either side is doing that right now.
Imho the Flyers made this mess for themselves and they are the one's who need to clean it up. VL doesn't need to, nor should he be expected to, do anything other than waive any NMC/NTC to help the Flyers.
Location: Driver's Seat: Mitch Marner bandwagon. Grab 'em by the Corsi. Joined: 02.04.2009
Jul 16 @ 1:18 PM ET
The downside of refusing to acknowledge analytics as a significant part of player evaluation - PhillySportsGuy
Lol, feeling ornery today?
Seriously tho, outside of the newfangled stuff, you really have to wonder about the pro scouting dept w/ this team... the am scouts are the cream of the crop... the pro scouts are either some of the worst in the biz, or the GM's have just tuned them out.
Location: me bitter? F-no i think it's hilarious Joined: 12.14.2011
Jul 16 @ 1:19 PM ET
It gives you options, cap space to eat salary in a trade for picks/prospects whether it be moving salary out or taking on salary in an effort to bring in young talent. Having cap space is advantageous right now. I think Hexy knows what he's doing too but in my opinion I'd rather go the buyout route in an effort to gain flexibility rather than think Vinny can bounce back and make himself an asset. - Just5
he's probably headed for ltir... with pronger traded they need someone to man that role.
Location: HEY. Does this pole still work?, NJ Joined: 01.14.2011
Jul 16 @ 1:22 PM ET
I agree with the sentiment of all of that except I wouldn't characterize VL as playing hardball in that case. I don't characterize an unwillingness to walk away from multiple millions as playing hardball. Nor would I characterize the Flyers actions as hardball either, really. They've got to make the best business decision for themselves that they can, even if that best move right now is to not make a move.
Imho the Flyers made this mess for themselves and they are the one's who need to clean it up. VL doesn't need to, nor should he be expected to, do anything other than waive any NMC/NTC to help the Flyers. - Scoob
I hear Springsteen's Glory Days will be on repeat in the owners suite until they finally break him.
While Lecavalier can terminate at any time, he's not going to do so just to be free of the Flyers. The goal for him is to play hockey, not to walk away from the Flyers.
I'm sure that termination was discussed and the Flyers gave their blessing to him to find a new contract elsewhere. He probably found nobody willing to offer a guarantee, at best he probably got a couple of PTO offers.
It's one thing to walk away from millions of dollars to go elsewhere and get a one or two year deal for slightly less. It's a completely different thing to walk out with no guarantees of a future playing & getting paid to play - Jsaquella
this. he clearly will not be able to find another team that will give him top 6 fwd minutes or maybe any at all. if i were him i would stay put, and work my ass off to get into the flyers line up
I think where many of the mistakes get made is in the term of the contract. Good, veteran signings tend to be shorter term. If Vinny only had a two year deal at even a higher AAV, he would still be a bad signing but at least they wouldn't be in the situation they are in now. But would Vinny sign a deal like that? Maybe not. But the Flyers would have had a hard time offering a shorter term deal with higher AAV because they were up against the cap. Good cap management is not only not handing out long-term veteran deals like this, but also being in a position where other contract structures are possible. Good cap management teams don't hand out deals like Vinny got and because they don't they don't put themselves in a position where, in order to get a player, they need to. - ManCity
Offering a shorter term in the Lecavalier deal wouldn't have changed the AAV. Every team makes mistakes. There are good signings and bad signings. Regardless of whether that player is younger or older. I think cap management is poorly understood by many. In the case of Lecavalier, it's not poor cap management, it was just a bad player signing.
Seriously tho, outside of the newfangled stuff, you really have to wonder about the pro scouting dept w/ this team... the am scouts are the cream of the crop... the pro scouts are either some of the worst in the biz, or the GM's have just tuned them out. - Tomahawk
Flyers over the years have had as many good signings as bad, if not more.
Offering a shorter term in the Lecavalier deal wouldn't have changed the AAV. Every team makes mistakes. There are good signings and bad signings. Regardless of whether that player is younger or older. I think cap management is poorly understood by many. In the case of Lecavalier, it's not poor cap management, it was just a bad player signing. - MJL
in this case i think it a distinction without difference; signing an aging player at a high salary at a position you already have too many of is bad use of cap space AND a bad player signing.
if they had a need a position and signed a guy who didn't work out that would be different.
Location: any donut with a hole in the middle can get (frank)ed right in its hole, NJ Joined: 04.08.2012
Jul 16 @ 2:09 PM ET
Lol, feeling ornery today?
Seriously tho, outside of the newfangled stuff, you really have to wonder about the pro scouting dept w/ this team... the am scouts are the cream of the crop... the pro scouts are either some of the worst in the biz, or the GM's have just tuned them out. - Tomahawk
It's just denial. Eventually the advanced stats will become so detailed that it will be sheer stupidity not to use them.
The NBA and mlb went through this exact transformation and now only maybe 3 teams don't rely heavily on them (one being the Phillies).
in this case i think it a distinction without difference; signing an aging player at a high salary at a position you already have too many of is bad use of cap space AND a bad player signing.
if they had a need a position and signed a guy who didn't work out that would be different. - hogweed
At the time of the signing there was absolutely room on the roster for a good 2nd line center. Schenn and Couturier has not established themselves as such yet.
