Anybody see Panotch's idea about how to lose Vinny, on PST?

http://youtu.be/B3oooMOXMUk
- isaiah520

I saw it. I was on board until he said Laughton. I assumed he was going to say someone like Alt.

I think the main reason they're calling him up is to get him some big league innings. I read that they're going to shut him down when he gets to a certain inning count, and if he was a September recall, he'd probably have surpassed that number.

As far as the future, he could be a real solid number 3 starter. I'm interested to see him. I think the next recall may well be Altherr if they manage to deal Revere, and I'd like to see that kid get a few ABs
- Jsaquella

Altherr really flies under the radar. I'm with you, I'd like to see him up with the big club soon. He's older for a prospect but he's a much better defender than both Herrera and Revere. And I'd love to see what he offers at the plate.

I think the main reason they're calling him up is to get him some big league innings. I read that they're going to shut him down when he gets to a certain inning count, and if he was a September recall, he'd probably have surpassed that number.

As far as the future, he could be a real solid number 3 starter. I'm interested to see him. I think the next recall may well be Altherr if they manage to deal Revere, and I'd like to see that kid get a few ABs
- Jsaquella

Yeah. I just fear that too many fans view Nola as the next Hamels

Phillies have historically been awful at developing starting pitching

i got 5 bucks that he's from delaware or has lived there at one point... those guys love arguing with mjl
- JoeRussomanno

I think I know who it is...if I could remember the name.
If it was possible to search old comments, I would nail it.

Feanor, I will not defend Grossmann in terms of possession. He was and has been for some time brutal. But AMac doesn't do himself any favors either in that regard. If he could just manage his neutral zone gaps better, he could legit turn things around big time. But sometimes it's just tough to impossible to coach something out of a player by that age. Maybe Hakstol does. Maybe not. Man, I hope so. He's always done well with Streit though from a possession standpoint. That'd be something I'd explore.

I base a lot of stuff on http://www.behindthenet.ca/index.php

Very easy to move around on that site and it measures a lot. I encourage anyone to explore either site.
- Mononoke

Where are you getting the zone gap information from? I hope it's not from Jess Schmidt? Actually, 28 isn't really that old for a defenseman. They take more time to develop. The biggest issue he has to overcome is to get away from the conservative style he developed, due to being cast in a role he wasn't suited for. When you're constantly getting bullets shot at you, you tend to duck a lot.

Now about AMac this year: he wasn't a trainwreck like in that season before or the others with the Isles. He was asked less and certainly did more than with the Isles. He was put into a better situation than being absurdly asked to play number one defense on the Isles. My point and only point isn't to disparage AMac as a player in a vacuum. He's not without redeemable qualities. Skill wise he's sort of a jack of all trades where aside from gap control he isn't particularly bad or particularly good in any area (his skating I'd call decent-good to be fair). I just wanted to address that he was used as a sheltered 4-5 and wasn't spectacular in that role either. He was OK. We all want more than OK. All I'm trying to get at is an assessment of what he is and the season he has had, and if there is in fact more or rather a significant more. I hope you understand that!
- Mononoke

MacDonald did not do a good enough job of generating shot attempts and putting up ES points. A lot of that is on him, but some of it is the result of being jerked around the lineup and forced to play the right side next to Grossmann who, as I illustrated on the last page, was a massive possession drain even on Mark Streit.

Defensively, his shot suppression numbers were 2nd only to Coalaicovo, and significantly better than Streit's and LSchenn's who were his closest comparables in terms of QoC.

http://stats.hockeyanalys...orsi&sort=A60&sortdir=ASC

My hope for this season is that Berube goes with this defense, at least till we see how Medvedev adjusts to the NHL:

MDZ-Schultz
MacDonald-Streit
Medvedev-LSchenn/Gudas

I'd do it for a highish 2nd round pick
- Just5

not inclined to do something like this, but if you're talking about a team like AZ and it's a 2nd rounder, i'd have to think about it.

even a June b/o of Vinny would charge ~ 2.9MM/2.4MM/900k/900k.

MacDonald did not do a good enough job of generating shot attempts and putting up ES points. A lot of that is on him, but some of it is the result of being jerked around the lineup and forced to play the right side next to Grossmann who, as I illustrated on the last page, was a massive possession drain even on Mark Streit.

Defensively, his shot suppression numbers were 2nd only to Coalaicovo, and significantly better than Streit's and LSchenn's whose were his closest comparables in terms of QoC.

http://stats.hockeyanalys...orsi&sort=A60&sortdir=ASC

My hope for this season is that Berube goes with this defense, at least till we see how Medvedev adjusts to the NHL:

MDZ-Schultz
MacDonald-Streit
Medvedev-LSchenn/Gudas
- Feanor

I like those pairings a lot. Best suggestion I've read.

I know you mean Hakstol!

I saw it. I was on board until he said Laughton. I assumed he was going to say someone like Alt.
- PhillySportsGuy

Just depends on how desperate they are to be rid of Vinny.

Feanor, I will not defend Grossmann in terms of possession. He was and has been for some time brutal. But AMac doesn't do himself any favors either in that regard. If he could just manage his neutral zone gaps better, he could legit turn things around big time. But sometimes it's just tough to impossible to coach something out of a player by that age. Maybe Hakstol does. Maybe not. Man, I hope so. He's always done well with Streit though from a possession standpoint. That'd be something I'd explore.

I base a lot of stuff on http://www.behindthenet.ca/index.php

Very easy to move around on that site and it measures a lot. I encourage anyone to explore either site.
- Mononoke

I like BTN, too. It's what I use for QoC numbers.

I question how bad MacDonald's gap management really was last season given his CA/60 numbers, but maybe we can save that discussion for another night. I'm much more concerned with him getting his offensive game back on track, and I think playing the left side with Streit would be the best thing for that, and the best thing for the team.

In all honesty, the next #1 isn't even in the system yet
- PhillySportsGuy

He could be for all we know but most likely isn't yet.

You guys realize this argument is really about one group believing Amac is a 3/4 defenseman and another group believing he's a 4/5 defenseman

The biggest problem is that everything you offer in terms of MacDonald as a player is analytic based
- MJL

No. Everything I offer is based first on my eyes and then on statistical collaboration. Each is integral to addressing that "why" you mentioned earlier. Conversely, everything you offer is based on pure opinion and the eye test. That strikes me as the flawed line of thinking. Every stat I throw up you dismiss wholesale without particulars on the reasoning. I hate to break it to you, but if we live in a world that can draw complex statistical models and analysis on things like economics, life sciences, and all that jazz, we can't have it for sports? Is sports more difficult to analyze than those things?

I feel woozy and tuckered out now. I should've trusted my better instincts....

Just depends on how desperate they are to be rid of Vinny.
- nails

Leafs have been willing to take on contracts for picks/prospects. I don't think Vinny would waive to go there though. One of the few places he wouldn't waive for.

Best course of action is probably just to ride it out and hope he terminates next offseason after his July 1 payout

I like those pairings a lot. Best suggestion I've read.

I know you mean Hakstol!

- MJL

Damn, I said the B-word.

You guys realize this argument is really about one group believing Amac is a 3/4 defenseman and another group believing he's a 4/5 defenseman
- PhillySportsGuy

No it's not. It's my foolheardy, idealistic attempt to battle in words and logic a person, dare I say a never-sleeping, machine-like entity that refuses to accept either, even when the proof is there.

I should've known. But if anyone else read my posts, maybe they learned something, so that's worth if it was true!

HEY EVERYONE ELSE? WOULD IT BE OK IF I JOIN YOU GUYS NOW? I LEARNED MY LESSON!

You guys realize this argument is really about one group believing Amac is a 3/4 defenseman and another group believing he's a 4/5 defenseman
- PhillySportsGuy

So we call him a 4 and are done?

MacDonald did not do a good enough job of generating shot attempts and putting up ES points. A lot of that is on him, but some of it is the result of being jerked around the lineup and forced to play the right side next to Grossmann who, as I illustrated on the last page, was a massive possession drain even on Mark Streit.

Defensively, his shot suppression numbers were 2nd only to Coalaicovo, and significantly better than Streit's and LSchenn's whose were his closest comparables in terms of QoC.

http://stats.hockeyanalys...orsi&sort=A60&sortdir=ASC

My hope for this season is that Berube goes with this defense, at least till we see how Medvedev adjusts to the NHL:

MDZ-Schultz
MacDonald-Streit
Medvedev-LSchenn/Gudas
- Feanor

I like it. It is a good starting point. Will be interested to see where Medvedev and Gudas fit in. Trade deadline is going to have an effect whether we're in the hunt or not. Who gets moved and who slides in?

Leafs have been willing to take on contracts for picks/prospects. I don't think Vinny would waive to go there though. One of the few places he wouldn't waive for.

Best course of action is probably just to ride it out and hope he terminates next offseason after his July 1 payout
- PhillySportsGuy

Problem with TP idea is that all the places that would do it, no one would waive for.
Have to hope that Vinny pride is bigger than his greed.

No it's not. It's my foolheardy, idealistic attempt to battle in words and logic a person, dare I say a never-sleeping, machine-like entity that refuses to accept either, even when the proof is there.

I should've known. But if anyone else read my posts, maybe they learned something, so that's worth if it was true!

HEY EVERYONE ELSE? WOULD IT BE OK IF I JOIN YOU GUYS NOW? I LEARNED MY LESSON!
- Mononoke

If you stop responding to him, he eventually just lets you be

Problem with TP idea is that all the places that would do it, no one would waive for.
Have to hope that Vinny pride is bigger than his greed.
- nails

He could just retire too.

I think his agent went out and looked around to see if there was interest and he was underwhelmed. At least with the Flyers he'll get paid a lot and get a good opportunity for regular playing time.

Other teams may have only been offering tryouts or vet minimums

I saw it. I was on board until he said Laughton. I assumed he was going to say someone like Alt.
- PhillySportsGuy

for Alt w/ Vinny, i'd be satisfied w/ future considerations in perpetuity

I saw it. I was on board until he said Laughton. I assumed he was going to say someone like Alt.
- PhillySportsGuy

....or Hagg

No. Everything I offer is based first on my eyes and then on statistical collaboration. Each is integral to addressing that "why" you mentioned earlier. Conversely, everything you offer is based on pure opinion and the eye test. That strikes me as the flawed line of thinking. Every stat I throw up you dismiss wholesale without particulars on the reasoning. I hate to break it to you, but if we live in a world that can draw complex statistical models and analysis on things like economics, life sciences, and all that jazz, we can't have it for sports? Is sports more difficult to analyze than those things?

I feel woozy and tuckered out now. I should've trusted my better instincts....
- Mononoke

The overwhelming majority of the content of your posts on MacDonald has been analytic based.
I think what's missed here from the equation, is about context. Your analysis of the statistics that you offered is pure opinion. That's simply because all of the data that you brought up, isn't definitive to point out anything about a player. All it can tell is what happened. Why requires a lot more than that.
We can certainly have it for sports, doesn't mean it's that definitive. Hockey is a team game. Analytics are a good tool and provide some insight. The concepts are sound, unfortunately, the data is team data, and not individual data. Far too much false data to definitively look at players individually.
I think the flawed thinking here is that you don't see that the conclusions you've drawn from these statistics is an opinion. If we want to look at a statistic, one person may think it means one thing, and another person may draw a different conclusion. That is the flaw with analytics. Any statistic with that flaw, should be taken with a grain of salt.

Streit has a OZ start percentage of 57%, well that's because he's a good offensive defenseman.
MacDonald has an OZ start percentage of 53%. Well that's because he's sheltered and the coach doesn't trust him defensively.
Not to mention that a lot of shifts for players, don't start with a faceoff, but let's ignore that.

We can argue this forever, I have my views, you have yours.

No it's not. It's my foolheardy, idealistic attempt to battle in words and logic a person, dare I say a never-sleeping, machine-like entity that refuses to accept either, even when the proof is there.

I should've known. But if anyone else read my posts, maybe they learned something, so that's worth if it was true!

HEY EVERYONE ELSE? WOULD IT BE OK IF I JOIN YOU GUYS NOW? I LEARNED MY LESSON!
- Mononoke

Resistance is futile