you said most meaningless stat in hockey, that's what you said. Say what you mean. Also, go look at the +/- leaders for years past, high majority of those players are above average players. FYI, top 10 career +/-, some decent players I would say:

Larry Robinson,Bobby Orr,Ray Bourque,Wayne Gretzky,Bobby Clarke,Denis Potvin,
Serge Savard,Guy Lafleur,Bryan Trottier,Nicklas Lidstrom
- flappymcgee303

WOW, just looked it up. Hossa is 3rd on the list of current players, with +228, behind Jagr (+291) and Datsyuk (+242).

Now that's a line I'd like to see, Datsyuk centering Hossa and Jagr.

17 of the first 20 on the list are HOFers.

Ok, so CC already makes less than Holtby, meaning he's now a "value." Next summer, he will be a bargain. Goaltenders are starting to be paid ... if you want a good one, he ain't coming cheap, unless you get really lucky with a string of rookie goalies and repeatedly cycle out goaltenders every couple of seasons, getting a pearl in every oyster you shuck.
- Q...argh

Nice.

WOW, just looked it up. Hossa is 3rd on the list of current players, with +228, behind Jagr (+291) and Datsyuk (+242).

Now that's a line I'd like to see, Datsyuk centering Hossa and Jagr.

17 of the first 20 on the list are HOFers.
- scottak

Meaningless stats according to TTTime

WOW, just looked it up. Hossa is 3rd on the list of current players, with +228, behind Jagr (+291) and Datsyuk (+242).

Now that's a line I'd like to see, Datsyuk centering Hossa and Jagr.

17 of the first 20 on the list are HOFers.
- scottak

Yeah but that stat doesn't mean anything

JJ, what's the biggest problem Stan is running into clearing cap space? Is there really no team that would take on Bickell or Versteegs contract? Or is he just waiting for a better deal because he already has a deal worked out with Krugs and has some time to put together a deal he likes? If I had to guess it sounds like a mixture of both. Also do you think there is the bowman ego coming into play? I mean he signed Bickell to that contract, and went out and traded for Steeger. So I'm thinking he doesn't want to look like a fool for dumping guys he had confidence in for a bag of pucks.
- redrising10

I'd say (just my opinion) no one is willing to pay Bickell that much, and I think it would be a stretch with Versteeg. Not impossible, but a stretch.

Q disagrees. Quoting JJ, from this blog: "The one thing the team will do in all of those scenarios is re-sign Marcus Kruger, who Quenneville believes is essential to any realistic shot at a Cup this year."

Sure, anyone can be wrong in their evaluation of a player's value--even Q. All things being equal though...
- Volodya

AT THE RIGHT PRICE.

Great player to have on your squad, no doubt. That is predicated on the amount of monies he costs though.

You attempt to compromise with Kooga, you don't break the bank and if they don't move salary relatively soon then it doesn't matter anyway.

Really compared to players on their own team? Go ahead and minimize Toews and Hossa for the sake of being right. And please Bickell played on the lower lines way way way more than Saad did. We'll see after this up coming year and see how the great Saad will do in Columbus. My guess 15 g and 25 a.
- BetweenTheDots

While probably not worth $6MM yet - and not at all affordable at that figure in Chicago - let's not "sour grapes" him into the dust bin of Bickell-land.

This is a 22 year old with a lot of talent and potential - speed, strength, CAN finish (even tho he often fails to) - top-6 here and top-6 on most (all?) teams in the league.

And important contributions to 2 Cup winners.

Let him mature on the ice and become more consistent - a little more ice vision, better decision making with the puck, more productive finishes - unless his attitude goes south in Buckeye land, he'll be a major factor in the Eastwrn Conference, if not this year, then sooner rather than later.

one of the "knocks" on saad was that he deferred to hoss and toews, passing up opportunities for the HOF'ers....lets see if he takes command more often?

Really compared to players on their own team? Go ahead and minimize Toews and Hossa for the sake of being right. And please Bickell played on the lower lines way way way more than Saad did. We'll see after this up coming year and see how the great Saad will do in Columbus. My guess 15 g and 25 a.
- BetweenTheDots

So you're saying Bickell is a better player than Saad? OK.

While probably not worth $6MM yet - and not at all affordable at that figure in Chicago - let's not "sour grapes" him into the dust bin of Bickell-land.

This is a 22 year old with a lot of talent and potential - speed, strength, CAN finish (even tho he often fails to) - top-6 here and top-6 on most (all?) teams in the league.

And important contributions to 2 Cup winners.

Let him mature on the ice and become more consistent - a little more ice vision, better decision making with the puck, more productive finishes - unless his attitude goes south in Buckeye land, he'll be a major factor in the Eastwrn Conference, if not this year, then sooner rather than later.
- StLBravesFan

Apparently Bickell is better.

Right, but it wasn't just a PR move. He is a good player that will fit in well. I think it was a hockey move first and foremost. Again, they need to win now and gain popularity now (at least much more than the Hawks do, haha).

He will be an improvement on their top line, and Dano wasn't going to be this coming season. They basically gave up a 2nd line C (in the immediate future) for Saad, and will face the consequences when Dano becomes a better player.
- SolidGoldBricks

Good post, dude......... Only comment I'd have is Dano may very well have skated top 6 for the Jackets and add IF Dano a/the better player.

I'd say (just my opinion) no one is willing to pay Bickell that much, and I think it would be a stretch with Versteeg. Not impossible, but a stretch.
- walshyleafsfan

Versteeg at 2.2? He is a .5 PPG in the league. He is on the last year of his contract.

you said most meaningless stat in hockey, that's what you said. Say what you mean. Also, go look at the +/- leaders for years past, high majority of those players are above average players. FYI, top 10 career +/-, some decent players I would say:

Larry Robinson,Bobby Orr,Ray Bourque,Wayne Gretzky,Bobby Clarke,Denis Potvin,
Serge Savard,Guy Lafleur,Bryan Trottier,Nicklas Lidstrom
- flappymcgee303

I said what I mean. It a useless stat and tells you nothing about what a player did or didn't do to contribute to the the number.

Its a team stat. Pretty amazing all those players were on great teams.

AT THE RIGHT PRICE.

Great player to have on your squad, no doubt. That is predicated on the amount of monies he costs though.

You attempt to compromise with Kooga, you don't break the bank and if they don't move salary relatively soon then it doesn't matter anyway.
- fattybeef

The "right price' is possible I'd say as long as no offer sheets show up.

Yeah but that stat doesn't mean anything

- BetweenTheDots

Saad will out produce Dano.

Versteeg at 2.2? He is a .5 PPG in the league. He is on the last year of his contract.
- TTtime

Yeah, no I agree he's a decent player. Liked him with the Leafs (mouth guard action withstanding, he and JVR ) anyway I digress, I think the missed games per season is alarming. 142 games (or so) missed in the last 4 years.

1) Sure, but i think most would agree for what he does, $2.5 million is reasonable—they can't even afford that right now. Likely will before too long and it'll get done.

2) Same exact logic could be applied to a rationale for trading one Corey Crawford. You might be able to get similar, not like or as, in return or by other means—because it is a salary cap world.

if I woke up tomorrow and saw they'd dealt Kruger's rights, would I have a heart attack in disbelief? No. Would I be very surprised? Based on all I've heard, yes.
- John Jaeckel

Over 50ish games at evens seeing 29-31 shots \ 60 ... Steve Mason (who was actually quite solid for Philly), Craig Anderson, Rask, Price, Eddie Lack. All +93% with a decent amount of games under their belt. 4-7 million dollar range.

Mason, Crow, Anderson and Price were the only ones over 84% in terms of high danger stoppage. Again 4ish to 7ish million. And I'd take any of those guys.

To have a proven NHL Goalie is +4 million minimum. More for a Price or Rask or Henry and in the middle for Crow. And with the Holtby contract that is going to jump for guys coming to term.

Like anything else it depends on the dollars involved with the other pieces. How does bickell get moved? How much salary does Kruger command? If they move Bickell or Versteeg + Shaw and dont take salary back they could theoretically keep both.

I dunno. They obviously have to do something and sooner rather than later would be ideal in my mind. Lotta moving parts outside of keeping one or the other.

Over 50ish games at evens seeing 29-31 shots \ 60 ... Steve Mason (who was actually quite solid for Philly), Craig Anderson, Rask, Price, Eddie Lack. All +93% with a decent amount of games under their belt. 4-7 million dollar range.

Mason, Crow, Anderson and Price were the only ones over 84% in terms of high danger stoppage. Again 4ish to 7ish million. And I'd take any of those guys.

To have a proven NHL Goalie is +4 million minimum. More for a Price or Rask or Henry and in the middle for Crow. And with the Holtby contract that is going to jump for guys coming to term.

Like anything else it depends on the dollars involved with the other pieces. How does bickell get moved? How much salary does Kruger command? If they move Bickell or Versteeg + Shaw and dont take salary back they could theoretically keep both.

I dunno. They obviously have to do something and sooner rather than later would be ideal in my mind. Lotta moving parts outside of keeping one or the other.
- fattybeef

Overall Mason and Anderson aren't as good as Crawford...I wouldn't take either as a logical replacement they don't have the consistency or post season resume to compare....

JJ, what's the biggest problem Stan is running into clearing cap space? Is there really no team that would take on Bickell or Versteegs contract? Or is he just waiting for a better deal because he already has a deal worked out with Krugs and has some time to put together a deal he likes? If I had to guess it sounds like a mixture of both. Also do you think there is the bowman ego coming into play? I mean he signed Bickell to that contract, and went out and traded for Steeger. So I'm thinking he doesn't want to look like a fool for dumping guys he had confidence in for a bag of pucks.
- redrising10

Just my $.02 but if Bickell is injured the only player available to trade that will net any decent cap space is Crawford. If Crawford is traded its a gamble going with Darling but may be one the FO is willing to take.
Would a trade for JVR and a defenseman for Crawford plus retaining some of JVR salary be a fair return?

Gonna disagree, Holtby was outstanding this season. And played on a team not nearly as good. And to reiterate what JJ and Mexico have both been saying, including this blog, there are a few NHL goalies that can win with the Hawks, and I'd include Holtby on that list.

And their numbers are almost identical. So no, I don't see a huge drop off.

CC
14-15 .924 2.27 2 SO
Career .917 2.34 12 SO

Holtby
14-15 .923 2.22 9 SO
Career .921 2.44 20 SO
- scottak

I'm a huge fan of Holtby, always have been just waited to see if he could put his total game together and see just how good the results could be. Frankly during last season he and Price would be the top 2 goalies in the world I'd most like to watch. Holtby was a freak and smooth as a babies rear end doing it. An exquisite skater and as smooth in his motion as Price, IMO.

BUT until a goalie, any goalie, stops point blank shot, after point blank shot on the biggest hockey stage in the world and wins a cup, we just don't know. Crawford has done so, twice. I think Holtby can but until he does I don't know.

I think Schneider can too and would gamble and swap Crow for either for big cap relief.

So you're saying Bickell is a better player than Saad? OK.
- TTtime

Wow that's not what I said. I stand where I stand and we'll see about Saad but I think he's over valued, jmho and TT you win you make no sense at all

Just my $.02 but if Bickell is injured the only player available to trade that will net any decent cap space is Crawford. If Crawford is traded its a gamble going with Darling but may be one the FO is willing to take.
Would a trade for JVR and a defenseman for Crawford plus retaining some of JVR salary be a fair return?
- molly2522

I don't think (although I obviously don't know for sure) that the Leafs are looking to move JVR yet. I think they will roll with Bernier (whether that proves right or wrong, who knows).

I think if they do trade JVR a 1st round pick is the first thing they will look for. IMO.

JJ, what's the biggest problem Stan is running into clearing cap space? Is there really no team that would take on Bickell or Versteegs contract? Or is he just waiting for a better deal because he already has a deal worked out with Krugs and has some time to put together a deal he likes? If I had to guess it sounds like a mixture of both. Also do you think there is the bowman ego coming into play? I mean he signed Bickell to that contract, and went out and traded for Steeger. So I'm thinking he doesn't want to look like a fool for dumping guys he had confidence in for a bag of pucks.
- redrising10

Not in this instance.

Continuing to double down on the bad bet known as "Rundblad, D"? Absolutely.

Because no team really "needs" a Kris Versteeg at his salary anymore, because there are some concerns about Bickell's health at his salary, the deals that are out there, as I hear it, basically involve the Hawks bribing teams into taking them on—with desirable prospects and/or picks. Bowman has surrendered a fair amount of picks already recently in unpopular deals (Timonen and Rundblad). So Bowman doesn't want to do that, or wants to minimize the damage as much as possible. That is what I hear is holding things up.

I'm a huge fan of Holtby, always have been just waited to see if he could put his total game together and see just how good the results could be. Frankly during last season he and Price would be the top 2 goalies in the world I'd most like to watch. Holtby was a freak and smooth as a babies rear end doing it. An exquisite skater and as smooth in his motion as Price, IMO.

BUT until a goalie, any goalie, stops point blank shot, after point blank shot on the biggest hockey stage in the world and wins a cup, we just don't know. Crawford has done so, twice. I think Holtby can but until he does I don't know.

I think Schneider can too and would gamble and swap Crow for either for big cap relief.
- Mr Ricochet

Schneider's contract worse than Crawford.

Versteeg at 2.2? He is a .5 PPG in the league. He is on the last year of his contract.
- TTtime

I'm in shock that Versteeg hasn't been traded yet. For some reason, Stanley is clearly not trying very hard, if at all. Maybe the same blackmail photos that keep him in the top six are also keeping him on the team?