So we're going to keep giving up younger assets to acquire veteran leaders? Seems kind of counter-productive. And what does it say about the current core, are the Sedins, Hamhuis, Dorsett, Prust, Higgins and Burrows not good enough?

Prust was brought in to be a mentor, yet technically he's holding a roster spot that could go to a young player.

And people keep talking about protecting our youth but Horvat is one of the biggest/strongest guys on the team and had no issues last year. I don't remember Vey ever getting knocked out badly, he fell down a lot like Raymond but adding Prust isn't going to make him the third Sedin along the boards. Corrado may not even play every game. Virtanen is already well over 200 lbs like Horvat and actually enjoys the agitating/physical side of the game, he might not even last more than 9 games. Grenier and Gaunce are both big guys that can handle themselves.

Who exactly are we protecting? We sadly don't have a super talented midget like Gaudreau, Patrick Kane or a Tyler Johnson.
- Nucker101

I'm pretty sure Benning said that he brought in Prust to protect Dorsett....

So we're going to keep giving up younger assets to acquire veteran leaders? Seems kind of counter-productive. And what does it say about the current core, are the Sedins, Hamhuis, Dorsett, Prust, Higgins and Burrows not good enough?

Prust was brought in to be a mentor, yet technically he's holding a roster spot that could go to a young player.

And people keep talking about protecting our youth but Horvat is one of the biggest/strongest guys on the team and had no issues last year. I don't remember Vey ever getting knocked out badly, he fell down a lot like Raymond but adding Prust isn't going to make him the third Sedin along the boards. Corrado may not even play every game. Virtanen is already well over 200 lbs like Horvat and actually enjoys the agitating/physical side of the game, he might not even last more than 9 games. Grenier and Gaunce are both big guys that can handle themselves.

Who exactly are we protecting? We sadly don't have a super talented midget like Gaudreau, Patrick Kane or a Tyler Johnson.
- Nucker101

It says that the team is transitioning to a new core.

I think it's called a..... a..... hmmmm..... a rebuild. Not sure if you're on board with that.

The trade might not be that great in terms of assets out/assets in but Sutter is a better fit than Bonino. I would much rather have Sutter going forward than Bonino.

And if you want to bring up contract, we're not really talking on-ice anymore so that's a completely different argument.

I don't really care because this team isn't going to be good anyway unless the Sedins and our top pairing can carry a bunch of role players to the playoffs again and a couple of other Western teams falter.

But I find the whole "he scored more goals so he's better" thing to be funny.


Bonino has 42 goals in his last 3 seasons, which was 179 games total. That's 19 goals per 82 games.


Sutter has 45 goals in his last 3 seasons, in 209 games total. That's 18 goals(rounding up from 17.5) per 82 games.

Bonino's last 3 seasons averaged out over a 82 game schedule:
19 Goals
27 Assists
46 Points

Sutter's last 3 seasons averaged out over 82 games:
18 Goals
13 Assists
31 Points


And Sutter will be making more money this year and next year. People keep saying "omg who cares how much you spend if you're not contending" yet a big advantage in rebuilding is having good trade pieces and ones who are affordable and easy to trade. Bonino at 1.9M was very affordable and due to the production he provides and the position he plays, he would have been pretty easy to trade to a lot of contenders at the TDL. And once Sutter is extended with a likely raise, it hurts the team's financial flexibility moving forward.

I know Hamhuis/Vrbata are due to come off of the books, but overpaying for 3rd liners, 4th liners and bottom pairing d-men limits the potential to move out those overpaid vets in the future and also means that it'll be harder for Benning to take advantage of cap ceiling teams since he won't have nearly the same cap flexibility as a smarter team that's also rebuilding.

And I'll be laughing if most of the cap space freed up next year gets taken up by the Bonino to Sutter "upgrade" and the rest spent on a 28 year old 20 goal scorer 2nd liner(Lucic) on an expensive long term deal. Which seems like a real possibility.
- Nucker101

Cherry picking stats again to help your argument? You can't do a 3 year average, only last season is applicable. What Bonnino did on the 1st PP with Getzlaf and Perry isn't a fair comparison. He came crashing down to earth this season and he spent considerable time with Vrbata

Players typically improve in FOW% as they gain experience. Sutter has been trending up.... Bonino has been trending down.
- Mungo

Okay, so let's assume Sutter stays as a legit 50% faceoff man, that's 3 more faceoff wins per 100 that he takes. Is that worth the trade off of lower offensive ability, much higher price tag, the somewhat decent young dman who we traded a decent prospect for, and a lower draft pick?

I'm pretty sure Benning said that he brought in Prust to protect Dorsett....
- belcherbd

Exactly.

You are right next year will be mainly a write off., probably even the next two to Three years.

The thing I like about this trade is Bo is ready to be promoted. He should be the second line centre.

Bonino is horrible at face offs and we don't have a reliable RHC for defensive zone RH face offs. Our options before were Bo and Bones. At least now we will have a decent RHC and decent LHC.

The part about being cheaper I don't care. If this is the lineup that is set for the year then I don't care if I come in under the cap by 10 cents or 10 million. It is not my money. If this is not your roster for this year then cap is important.
- VANTEL

Don't feed the troll.
Flames fans??

It says that the team is transitioning to a new core.

I think it's called a..... a..... hmmmm..... a rebuild. Not sure if you're on board with that.

The trade might not be that great in terms of assets out/assets in but Sutter is a better fit than Bonino. I would much rather have Sutter going forward than Bonino.

And if you want to bring up contract, we're not really talking on-ice anymore so that's a completely different argument.
- RealityChecker

I've brought both on-ice and off-ice(cap), I haven't seen a good argument for why Sutter is an upgrade in either area.

So we're going to keep giving up younger assets to acquire veteran leaders? Seems kind of counter-productive. And what does it say about the current core, are the Sedins, Hamhuis, Dorsett, Prust, Higgins and Burrows not good enough?

Prust was brought in to be a mentor, yet technically he's holding a roster spot that could go to a young player.

And people keep talking about protecting our youth but Horvat is one of the biggest/strongest guys on the team and had no issues last year. I don't remember Vey ever getting knocked out badly, he fell down a lot like Raymond but adding Prust isn't going to make him the third Sedin along the boards. Corrado may not even play every game. Virtanen is already well over 200 lbs like Horvat and actually enjoys the agitating/physical side of the game, he might not even last more than 9 games. Grenier and Gaunce are both big guys that can handle themselves.

Who exactly are we protecting? We sadly don't have a super talented midget like Gaudreau, Patrick Kane or a Tyler Johnson.
- Nucker101

What young assets? Are you talking Clendenning? Clendenning Stanton Corrado Biega? How many of that type clone do you need on the team? How about we try bringing in a Desprese or a Vatanen type instead of all these clones that are fringe players.

The closest thing we have to a goal scorer is Weber , whom I am not sold on.

Sutter is a better third line centre .

Don't feed the troll.
Flames fans??
- Marwood

Nucker is not a troll. He brings legitimate concerns. Most I agree with this one I am fully on side with the move.

Benning will bring out the debate and anger in fans. That said he did have success last year. And he does give us water cooler topics

Cherry picking stats again to help your argument? You can't do a 3 year average, only last season is applicable. What Bonnino did on the 1st PP with Getzlaf and Perry isn't a fair comparison. He came crashing down to earth this season and he spent considerable time with Vrbata
- CanuckDon

Only last season? Guess you've never heard of sample size and how having a larger one is more accurate. Plenty of players have up and down seasons, you typically need multiple seasons to really evaluate a player's ability. They're only 10 months apart in age so it's not like I'm comparing apples to oranges by using a multi-year comparison.

Bonino had 6 more points than Sutter, yeah he really came crashing down. Burrows and Higgins were his most common linemates and he did most of his scoring with them and not Vrbata anyway.

Don't feed the troll.
Flames fans??
- Marwood

Good discussion. And I'm the troll...

Players typically improve in FOW% as they gain experience. Sutter has been trending up.... Bonino has been trending down.
- Mungo

Sutter essentially had a season like Bonino before we acquired him, scored a career high goals and looks like he is ready to take the next step. Both players did this on teams with significantly more offensive talent, we know Bonino wasn't able to produce at that level with Higgins and Vrbata. Is there much realistic hope that Sutter will fair better?

I'm certainly not a Bonino fan and wasn't at the time of the Kesler trade or through last season at all but he was on a sweet heart contract and did a good job surrounded by mediocre players last year.

I actually believe that Sutter is the better player out of the two but they are very close and should both be solid 3rd line C's, one just makes more than the other.

Unfortunately I believe we will see a contract commitment to Sutter that will likely making him less appealing and possibly also make him the de facto 2nd line C but time will tell.

Okay, so let's assume Sutter stays as a legit 50% faceoff man, that's 3 more faceoff wins per 100 that he takes. Is that worth the trade off of lower offensive ability, much higher price tag, the somewhat decent young dman who we traded a decent prospect for, and a lower draft pick?
- Nucker101

I like having a RHC. I personally think that Sutter is a much better player defensively and he is clearly an upgrade speed wise to Bonino and I think we can both agree that we lacked speed last year.

Being able to use Sutter in all situations will allow WD to use the Sedins in more offensive situations which I think will help the team big time as well. Bonino just wasn't reliable enough. He got eat'n alive against bigger centres.

That's because stats are actually evidence, it's easy to make any decent player sound great with a scouting report.

Sutter's career FO% is 48.2 and Bonino's is 47.1%..so yay we'll win one more faceoff, maybe two per every 100 Sutter takes instead!


Luca Sbisa is a better skater and had a longer reach than both Tanev and Hamhuis so I'm not buying that. I'd like some actual evidence.
- Nucker101

Stats are data about what happened but aren't necessarily predictive.

To be so confident in their predictive nature, especially in a sport such as hockey where the stats are largely arbitrary (as evidenced by the increase in all manner of "advanced stats"), is misleading.

Generally speaking, stats are used to support an already held belief (my editorial view). Just look at the post earlier showing the "statistical advantage" of Sutter over Kesler.

15 months ago, Sutter alone was worth more than Kesler according to some Pens fans. Now he isn't any better than Bonino.

"Lies, damned lies, and statistics"

Stats are data about what happened but aren't necessarily predictive.

To be so confident in their predictive nature, especially in a sport such as hockey where the stats are largely arbitrary (as evidenced by the increase in all manner of "advanced stats"), is misleading.

Generally speaking, stats are used to support an already held belief (my editorial view). Just look at the post earlier showing the "statistical advantage" of Sutter over Kesler.

15 months ago, Sutter alone was worth more than Kesler according to some Pens fans. Now he isn't any better than Bonino.

"Lies, damned lies, and statistics"
- RealityChecker

well said

I've brought both on-ice and off-ice(cap), I haven't seen a good argument for why Sutter is an upgrade in either area.
- Nucker101

sutter is better defensively. do you really need numbers to tell you that?

seriously?

you base player evaluation way too much on offensive production. Hockey's a two way game and I would rather have Sutter over Binono in that regard. The offense between the two is a wash IMO
- Mungo

I don't believe Bonino is a 3rd line centre and he wasn't much of a second line one either. I don't know much about Sutter. Some say he's a good shutdown centre and others say he is soft. If Sutter can fill the role of a third line centre better than Bonino than this could be a good move. A responsible centre would help with the introduction of rookie wingers. If Horvat can manage 2c then you have two two-way centers to protect the younger wingers. This, if it doesn't make the team better this year, at least, allows for the introduction of our young players in a safer environment.

What young assets? Are you talking Clendenning? Clendenning Stanton Corrado Biega? How many of that type clone do you need on the team? How about we try bringing in a Desprese or a Vatanen type instead of all these clones that are fringe players.

The closest thing we have to a goal scorer is Weber , whom I am not sold on.

Sutter is a better third line centre .
- VANTEL

I'm talking about the picks he's given up for 4th liners and now he's downgrading one of the 2nd's we got for Bieksa and the season hasn't even started yet. Sure, it may only be a 10 spot difference but other GM's take notice of these things and in the future when a deal is close to being completed, they'll push for Benning to give them a little something extra as well. And none of us love Clendneing, but they gave up a decent prospect in Forlsing for him(he's ranked as CHI's #10 prospect, ironically the Clending was voted as the Canucks #10 prospect as well). So he had a least fringe value, just like the pick upgrade.

Say he wants Tinordi from MTL and offers Shinkaruk or Gaunce, Bergevin will undoubtedly push hard to get him to throw in another 5th rounder like last time or maybe ask him to downgrade the 3rd again to an even later 3rd or a 4th so suddenly the 2nd from Bieksa has evolved into a 4th or an even later 3rd.

It's just weird how Benning seems to be the one usually paying a little extra in most negotiations to get things done.

What proof is there that Sutter is better defensively?
- Nucker101

Imagine if Benning just knew that certain players would be better in the future thats why hes targeting those players for higher prices.......were (frank)ed.

Stats are data about what happened but aren't necessarily predictive.

To be so confident in their predictive nature, especially in a sport such as hockey where the stats are largely arbitrary (as evidenced by the increase in all manner of "advanced stats"), is misleading.

Generally speaking, stats are used to support an already held belief (my editorial view). Just look at the post earlier showing the "statistical advantage" of Sutter over Kesler.

15 months ago, Sutter alone was worth more than Kesler according to some Pens fans. Now he isn't any better than Bonino.

"Lies, damned lies, and statistics"
- RealityChecker

Very well said but I don't think anyone is talking about guarantees but some of us are saying that those stats do a better job of predicting success than the traditional "eye test".

Will it always work ? no, but the top players and teams almost always are statistical darlings when looked at in a large enough sample size.

Nucker is not a troll. He whines incessantly. Most I agree with this one I am fully on side with the move.

Benning will bring out the debate and anger in fans. That said he did have success last year. And he does give us water cooler topics
- VANTEL

Fixed.

Stats are data about what happened but aren't necessarily predictive.

To be so confident in their predictive nature, especially in a sport such as hockey where the stats are largely arbitrary (as evidenced by the increase in all manner of "advanced stats"), is misleading.

Generally speaking, stats are used to support an already held belief (my editorial view). Just look at the post earlier showing the "statistical advantage" of Sutter over Kesler.

15 months ago, Sutter alone was worth more than Kesler according to some Pens fans. Now he isn't any better than Bonino.

"Lies, damned lies, and statistics"
- RealityChecker

I don't know, a decent amount of Pens have hated Sutter for a couple of years now. He's usually brought up in every trade scenario and yet Benning views him as a "foundation piece". Just like the Luca Sbisa evaluation, it's a legit concern. He seems to have a soft spot for these tall, fast guys who don't have the best hockey sense.

ANA fans actually seemed a bit upset over the Bonino loss so I don't buy that the Pens fans are just hating on Sutter suddenly.

Nucker is not a troll. He brings legitimate concerns. Most I agree with this one I am fully on side with the move.

Benning will bring out the debate and anger in fans. That said he did have success last year. And he does give us water cooler topics
- VANTEL

Willie deserves more credit than the GM.

Good discussion. And I'm the troll...
- Nucker101

I'm usually on your side of the fence , but I think Sutter is a good fit here.

Better than Wellwood , Santorelli , Bolduc Volpatti .

We are finally getting true bottom 6 players

Good discussion. And I'm the troll...
- Nucker101

Face off %, defensive game and shows up for the playoffs.